The Prophet Boasts

[_Jersey Girl]

What is apostolic authority? What does that mean? How do we know when it's gone and when it's returned?

[_Jason Bourne]

Does Jesus ever say he is greater than God or has done a greater work than God? Again, what is the greater work that Joseph did? This is a critical point I'd like to draw out.

A couple points here. This quote you opened with always bothered me. It seemed so out of charecter with what I had studied and Joseph Smith. I have come to view it in a couple ways. First, like most of the Docuemtive Church History where this comes from, it was put together after the fact. The tone may have been put is Joseph Smith's mouth and he may not have said it the way it comes across.

But assuming he did say it I also can understand it a bit because of the situation he found himself in. Once again mobacracy threatened his life and the existence of the Church he founded. Whatever he had done he had to be tired of the constand pressure that came from all of this. Most of his friends had stuck with him, though not all. But the work he refers to is the work of establishing a Church, what he claimed was THE CHURCH of Jesus CHRIST-restored to the earth. He claims to have established the Church and held it together not subject to apostasy or loss of priesthood. This is what he meant when he said Jesus, Peter and Paul had not done this. I am not saying he was correct but this is what he meant.

[_Jason Bourne]

What authority?

Jersey Girl

Lemme spell it out for ya ;)

A P O S T O L I C Authority.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN???

I believe I explained this above at least from the LDS view. LDS believe Apostolic authority is priesthood, the right to act in God's name, receive revelation to guide the Church, and to administer ordinances that LDS believe are necessarey for salvation. LDS believe that this priesthood was lost and not passed on with the death of the apostles later to be restored through Joseph Smith.

Clear on this now?

[_Jason Bourne]

Methinks one cannot see the apostasy for the trees. Er, uh, splinters.

Jersey Girl

I think it's quite common for members of the LDS church to see these "splinter" groups as insignificant numbers of apostates, while the "true" church holds itself together. McConkie described these people as yapping dogs nipping at the heels of the church, but "the caravan moves on." Uh-huh.

Can you show any one that has really prospered at all other then the SLC Church and maybe the CoC?

Prospered? What does that have to do with anything?

The truest church is the most prosperous, duh. Only a true church will have millions of members, billions of dollars in cash, more billions in business investments, and hundreds of great and spacious buildings with golden statues on top. That's the sign of a true church. A church with modest membership numbers meeting in an inexpensive structure that doesn't buy up real estate and invest in business ventures cannot possibly be true.

by the way, don't even try to bring up the Catholic church with it's hundred million members, real estate holdings, and extravagantly expensive buildings. We all know the Catholic church can't possibly be true, so their prosperity doesn't count.

I did not say it was a sign of the true church but that it was the only LDS splinter group that prospered after Smith's death.

[Anonymous]

What is apostolic authority? What does that mean? How do we know when it's gone and when it's returned?

Basically it is the biggest "appeal to authority" argument ever used. How this works is the LDS supposedly derive their power (read: magical priesthood decoder rings) from the Big Kahuna himself, Jesus (through the Prophet Joseph Smith and all the way down the line). Basically they're saying the LDS Church is more true because "man" fumbled the religious ball a long time ago, and Joseph Smith was the first person for 1700 years or whatever who was able to pick it up and run for a touchdown. In reality it's just a big McGuffin...a whiff of smoke that allows the LDS to be indoctrinated in the ways the LDS leaders have wanted to....now it's a self fulfilling issue because of the generational thing (where kids learn from their parents)....but the first group has to be tricked somehow. Thus the priesthood authority red herring was born.

[_The Nehor]

What is apostolic authority? What does that mean? How do we know when it's gone and when it's returned?

Basically it is the biggest "appeal to authority" argument ever used. How this works is the LDS supposedly derive their power (read: magical priesthood decoder rings) from the Big Kahuna himself, Jesus (through the Prophet Joseph Smith and all the way down the line). Basically they're saying the LDS Church is more true because "man" fumbled the religious ball a long time ago, and Joseph Smith was the first person for 1700 years or whatever who was able to pick it up and run for a touchdown. In reality it's just a big McGuffin...a whiff of smoke that allows the LDS to be indoctrinated in the ways the LDS leaders have wanted to....now it's a self fulfilling issue because of the generational thing (where kids learn from their parents)....but the first group has to be tricked somehow. Thus the priesthood authority red herring was born.

Or for an alternate viewpoint Joseph meant what he said. :)

[_Jersey Girl]

What authority?

Jersey Girl

Lemme spell it out for ya ;)

A P O S T O L I C Authority.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN???

I believe I explained this above at least from the LDS view. LDS believe Apostolic authority is priesthood, the right to act in God's name, receive revelation to guide the Church, and to administer ordinances that LDS believe are necessarey for salvation. LDS believe that this priesthood was lost and not passed on with the death of the apostles later to be restored through Joseph Smith.

Clear on this now?

What were the signs that the priesthood was lost?

[_JAK]

Methinks one cannot see the apostasy for the trees. Er, uh, splinters.

Jersey Girl

I think it's quite common for members of the LDS church to see these "splinter" groups as insignificant numbers of apostates, while the "true" church holds itself together. McConkie described these people as yapping dogs nipping at the heels of the church, but "the caravan moves on." Uh-huh.

Can you show any one that has really prospered at all other then the SLC Church and maybe the CoC?

Prospered? What does that have to do with anything?

The truest church is the most prosperous, duh. Only a true church will have millions of members, billions of dollars in cash, more billions in business investments, and hundreds of great and spacious buildings with golden statues on top. That's the sign of a true church. A church with modest membership numbers meeting in an inexpensive structure that doesn't buy up real estate and invest in business ventures cannot possibly be true.

by the way, don't even try to bring up the Catholic church with it's hundred million members, real estate holdings, and extravagantly expensive buildings. We all know the Catholic church can't possibly be true, so their prosperity doesn't count.

If that's the criteria, I'm not sure where the LDS church would stand, worldwide. Per capita, maybe, but overall? Catholics are undoubtedly first, but wouldn't the Shiite Muslims be next? I'm sure someone with more Google experience than I can find a website that would tell us which is the richest church in the world.

Religious Group Sizes

JAK

[_Jersey Girl]

Thanks JAK! It would appear that the Catholic Church is the true church. Good to know!

Jersey Girl
;-)

[_JAK]

Thanks JAK! It would appear that the Catholic Church is the true church. Good to know!

Jersey Girl
;-)

Why would it “appear that the Catholic Church is the true church”? ;-)

JAK