dartagnan wrote:The moral sense evolved as part and parcel of human nature long before God beliefs were invented, and when God beliefs die, the moral sense, like the rest of human nature, lives on.
I don't see how this assertion could be in any sense supported. Since before religion? That is a hell of a long time ago to make such statements, and atheism has become only a relatively recent phenomenon as a movement with any kind of political sway.
The rudiments of a moral sense have now been documented in animals, which places the development of that sense well before religion. For documentation of this, see Good Natured by primatologist Franz DeWaal and Moral Minds: How Nature Designed Our Universal Sense of Right and Wrong by Harvard biologist Marc Hauser.
However, it cannot be ignored that many of the moral leaps human society has made over the course of history has been led by those dastardly religious fanatics. Whether it be the abondoning of slavery or the strive for human rights throughout the world, it wasn't the atheist who was behind these endeavors.
I suppose ignorance is bliss for you heaven-bound Christians. Slavery was practiced, and divinely approved, throughout the Hebrew Bible ("Old Testament") and in early Christianity. And it was the example of God's law and God's servants (e.g., Abraham) to which proponents of American slavery appealed in support of slavery. Slavery was also justified by the biblical curse of Canaan--a servant of servants (Hebrew: a slave of slaves) shall he be. And while most of the actors on both sides of the slavery debate were Christian--since Christians comprised the great majority of the population--"freethinkers" were disproportionally represented among the abolitionists. Freethinking newspapers like "Lucifer's Lantern" took some of the most radical and staunch abolitionist stances of all.
Religious doubters and rationalists have also been at the forefront of most if not all other modern liberation movements--including the American Revolution (spearheaded by men like the deists Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine), the French Revolution, and women's suffrage.
It seems to me that most atheists are essentially moral people, not because they fear divine retribution in the hereafter. I think they are essentially moral because of what Analytics had to say about the reason why atheists marry (which I argue was originally a religious concept adopted by atheists who wanted to fit into society); the reason why atheist groups or any group for that matter, are not acting like Nazi Germany in this day and age is that it isn't viable. It isn't an efficient means to get along or even survive.
When atheists have the opportunity to privately do wrong, they don't appear to do so any more than anyone else. Modern scientists are an overwhelmingly godless lot, yet such organizations as the National Academies of Sciences are not among the world's noted hotbeds of evil. Most atheists live morally because they believe in moral principles independent of a God to enforce them.
For theists, some fear divine retribution but that doesn't mean this is their sole reason for striving for morality (whatever "goodness" one includes in their definition). They are humans just the same and are inclined to act as moral as the next guy, but religion gives them a sense of purpose. It is their touchstone that results in more action than just talk. Again, religious fanatics are more likely to lead movements that one might consider a noble or moral endeavor, than are atheists, who, in my experience, tend to live life and keep their views to themselves.
Then it's safe to say that you don't know many atheists.
Don