The Real Reason I Left

[_Gazelam]

Being raped is not losing your virtue.

By your reasoning , if I am mugged, then I am also guilty of assisting in a robbery and would need to repent.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

Being raped is not losing your virtue.

By your reasoning , if I am mugged, then I am also guilty of assisting in a robbery and would need to repent.

I see. You haven't even read the thread, much less Kimball's book.

[_Blixa]

Being raped is not losing your virtue.

By your reasoning , if I am mugged, then I am also guilty of assisting in a robbery and would need to repent.

Gaz, either you are being egregiously disingenuous or you are a very lazy and poor reader.

In every part of that foul book that I cited, the discussion of "virtue" occurs in sections on sexual sin. It is clear from the context that, and this is a very common if arcane usage, "virtue" equals chastity. It is also clear from this section:

“Also far-reaching is the effect of loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.” [emphasis mine]

that indeed "being raped is losing your virtue."

I would suggest that you re-read the entire thread (even the places it gets bogged down in back and forths) to see that everyone here understood the passages as being about rape.

If you want to play some apologistic game and start claiming that "virtue" doesn't necessarily mean chastity, then fine. You are right that in every instance the word has been used in all writing everywhere in the world, it doesn't necessarily mean that. But that is a foolish rebuttal. In the case of The Miracle of Forgiveness it clearly is taken to be equivalent to chastity. That is why it occurs primarily in the sections on sexual sin (the sin next to murder).

The rhetorical combination of sex and death occurs in many places throughout Mormon writing and history (as it does in fundamentalist cultures in general). And while I suspect it is easier for a man than a woman to be blind to such usage, the examples you have just been cited are glaring.

Also, please do not take "rhetoric" to mean "mere rhetoric," as in apologistic attempts to claim that much of Brigham Young's beliefs were just that: oratory blustering with no "real" meaning. In the real world, words have consequences. That is why language and concepts are a material force.

[_Runtu]

Being raped is not losing your virtue.

By your reasoning , if I am mugged, then I am also guilty of assisting in a robbery and would need to repent.

I really hope you're not being that disingenuous, Gaz. I like you, but this response is depressing.

[_Some Schmo]

I have yet to see anyone provide evidence for the church saying it is better to die than be raped.

Who would like to be the first to step up and eat a little crow and declare that you were just spouting unfounded anti rhetoric?

Translation:

*places fingers in ears* I can't hear you... la la la la la la la la la la...

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

Being raped is not losing your virtue.

By your reasoning , if I am mugged, then I am also guilty of assisting in a robbery and would need to repent.

I really hope you're not being that disingenuous, Gaz. I like you, but this response is depressing.

He really is being this disingenuous. In his brand of testimony, the church is true because he believes in it, not the other way around. What he's doing here is "lying for the lord," but the only one falling for it is himself.

Chastity is its own punishment.

[_SatanWasSetUp]

I have yet to see anyone provide evidence for the church saying it is better to die than be raped.

Who would like to be the first to step up and eat a little crow and declare that you were just spouting unfounded anti rhetoric?

Back in the early 90s, the bishop of our University Ward addressed the relif society, which consisted of single adult women and young married women. He spoke on the topic of chastity and told them that if a man tries to rape them, they must fight them off until they die, for it is better to die defending your virtu than to lose it. Many of the women were offended by the talk. I thought it was a little out there until I read Kimball's book and realized that thinking is a part of Mormon teachings.

[_Jason Bourne]

I have yet to see anyone provide evidence for the church saying it is better to die than be raped.

Who would like to be the first to step up and eat a little crow and declare that you were just spouting unfounded anti rhetoric?

Then you have not bothered reading the thread.

[_Jason Bourne]

I have yet to see anyone provide evidence for the church saying it is better to die than be raped.

Who would like to be the first to step up and eat a little crow and declare that you were just spouting unfounded anti rhetoric?

Nobody said that. They said that one should fight to the death rather then lose their virtue in rape and also that the Church taught it would be better to die the (voluntarily) give up virtue. Both those positions have been documented here.

[_Jason Bourne]

Being raped is not losing your virtue.

By your reasoning , if I am mugged, then I am also guilty of assisting in a robbery and would need to repent.

Of course it isn't. But some leaders (SWK especially) said it was.