Okay, I give. What critics?

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

I wasn't planning to post this but, some of the posters who showed up on Z did so on account of another mass exodus. You all might not be aware of that, all true.



Are you referring to the Tanner's Lighthouse Message Board?

If so, the irony of that is LDS posters fled due to the overtly partisan, biased moderating of that board.

That's why ZLMB was set up with a strictly nonpartisan moderating team.

Isn't it funny how life works?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

beastie wrote:
I wasn't planning to post this but, some of the posters who showed up on Z did so on account of another mass exodus. You all might not be aware of that, all true.



Are you referring to the Tanner's Lighthouse Message Board?

If so, the irony of that is LDS posters fled due to the overtly partisan, biased moderating of that board.

That's why ZLMB was set up with a strictly nonpartisan moderating team.

Isn't it funny how life works?


No, I wasn't referring to UTLMB.

One of the things I appreciated about Z was that the mods moderated both "sides" of the house, if you will. I still don't know what happened to cause those cappings. I think I just wasn't reading the threads that others were. I do remember alot of activity in OL though!

When did UTLMB originate and do you know when it was disbanded?

Just curious about that.

Jersey Girl
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

Okay, I googled. I can't see any online archives from UTLMB but I do see an announcement of it closing in July 2001.

What posters from the lists on this thread were on UTLMB? Do you know? Again, it's mere curiosity of how the herd migrated from place to place. ;-)

Jersey Girl
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

It was mainly believers who migrated from UTLMB to ZLMB. If I recall correctly, RichardMd may have been one of those posters, perhaps he knows more details.

I do know that Pacumeni, the founder of ZLMB was there, as were some of the friendlier EVs like David (W something) who later became a mod at ZLMB.

Which board were you referring to? ARM?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

beastie wrote:It was mainly believers who migrated from UTLMB to ZLMB. If I recall correctly, RichardMd may have been one of those posters, perhaps he knows more details.

I do know that Pacumeni, the founder of ZLMB was there, as were some of the friendlier EVs like David (W something) who later became a mod at ZLMB.

Which board were you referring to? ARM?


I think I'm gonna write a book or something, seriously. This fascinates the heck out of me and I can't exactly say why.

I'll name some posters who typically stick with one screen name: sansfoy, Alf, Nevo, Jenny...do you think they were on UTLMB?

Kind of like watching the migration of little nomadic herds that pitched their tents on one place and then moved on to form other communities.


Jersey Girl
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Apparently Daniel Peterson was on UTMLB as well. I went to the earliest archive of "banquet" on Z and found this thread:

http://p079.ezboard.com/fpacumenispages ... D=60.topic

You can see that Pac, Pahoran, SR103 and maybe urroner all appear conversant with the topic, but here is the most interesting post from DCP:

sr1030: "What's up with this very strange fascination some on this board have with UTLM and Webguy?"

Let me try to explain my own. I'm fascinated -- and I don't mean this flippantly -- by bad behavior. I'm always puzzled when I see people behaving in ways that seem to me obviously unfair, unjustifiable, or unreasonable. I will often try to probe to see if, in the heat of discussion or whatever, they simply haven't realized that their behavior is bad, or if they will persist in it and even defend it. UTLM interests me, at least partially, for precisely that reason.

I have watched Webguy's deletion of what I thought were entirely inoffensive posts by Latter-day Saints, and, candidly, have been amazed. I've seen critics of the Latter-day Saints use insulting language on UTLM or make insulting insinuations (or overt charges) far beyond anything in the deleted posts, yet remain untouched. Indeed, Webguy has done so himself. This intrigues me. I find human nature endlessly interesting.

(Having said that, I must note in fairness to Webguy that he has not deleted or banned ME, and that, as a matter of fact, he recently deleted an insulting personal attack on me by Jon Luke. And, just today, he sent me a potentially helpful answer in response to a board-related computer question I had asked him.)

My fascination is not only with Webguy, though. I find the behavior of some of the other participants on UTLM at least as interesting. (Other adjectives come to mind, too, like
"repellant." But repellant or unpleasant things -- e.g., tragedy, bloody accidents, really deformed things, and the like, do have a kind of mesmerizing attractiveness, don't they?) I've recently been posting there under my own name and, despite a conscious attempt to maintain a civil if somewhat humorous tone, have found once again that I myself have become a subject of discussion. (Sufficient reason, if I weren't already going to be out of town and away from my computer for much of the next 2.5 months, to back out of participation on UTLM.) Jon Luke's attack has not been alone. Mountainrun, who briefly appeared on this board, has hinted broadly at my cowardice and lack of integrity, as well as my vanity, my arrogance, and my strong urge to develop a following of brainless sycophants. Someone calling himself "phos1" has noted that I'm often dishonest (and has been endorsed in that verdict by somebody known as L4, I believe.) And so on and so forth.

I'll admit that, while such things don't maintain their entertainment value for very long, they do interest me. I acknowledge a sense of humor that some (only among those, I think [or hope] who don't know me) find offensive for its sardonic character, but I try to stay away from out and out frontal personal attack. So I wonder why others don't, why it's so easy, apparently, for really vicious things to be said about perfect strangers during discussions -- especially, of all things, on topics of faith and religious belief.

Of course, the real, basic reason for participating on UTLM is a strong desire to discuss and defend things that matter to me. But the question was why, above and beyond that, UTLM and its Webguy "fascinate." I've tried to explain why, in my own personal case.

sr1030: "I can't speak for other non-lds but this kind of thing makes this board less and less desirable to post on for me. Just what would this board be if all non-lds quit posting here? Is this what LDS that post here want?"

I'm confident that I speak for most if not all other Latter-day Saints on this message board in expressing welcome to non-Latter-day Saints. Criticism of UTLM is not criticism of evangelicals as such. It's criticism of the particular tactics and patterns of behavior that many of us have observed there (as well as, truth be told, generally among many critics of Latter-day Saint belief). The entire paternal side of my family is Protestant. I like them, respect them, and get along well with them. I think the feeling is mutual. I actually have several prominent anti-Mormon friends, whom I will not name lest I cause them public embarrassment.



(by the way, I bolded the sentences that appear ironic to me, given MAD's moderating)
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Here's another early thread that shows posters who have familiarity with UTLMB

http://p079.ezboard.com/fpacumenispages ... D=49.topic

I noted Pac's sig line:

-- The Tanners' mantra for 30 years has been that the Church censors its own teachings and history. Yet, as soon as they put up a message board and Latter-day Saints show up to show where they are wrong, the Tanners engage in suppression themselves.


I don't think Pac posts anywhere anymore, but I could be wrong. He really did try to be nonpartisan, so I doubt he would approve of FAIR/MAD's moderating style, but I wanted to share his quote to demonstrate that LDS believers fled UTLMB due to the oppressive, biased, moderating of webguy, but have now evolved into MAD.

I never posted on UTLMB, so I can't directly compare the two, but it's hard for me to believe MAD is any less partisan and biased than webguy once was.

by the way, one of the most obvious differences between the very early days of ZLMB and its later days wasn't in the ratio of critics to believer, but in this: at the beginning, most of the critics were EV Christians from UTLMB. In the later days, most of the critics were secular.

LDS believers viewed the early days of ZLMB as the halcyon days. My opinion is that is due to a preference for debating EVs rather than secular critics.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Phaedrus Ut
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Post by _Phaedrus Ut »

I posted on ZLMB starting back in 02' I'm guessing. Many of the usual names people recognize now were there. *I browsed the archives* Brent Metcalf, Dan Vogel, Kerry Shirts, Brant Gardner, Daniel Peterson, Wade englund, Dr. Shades, Tolworthy, skains, sansfoy, David wills, zakusa, smac, Kevin, trixie(beastie right?), calrobinson, roger lomis, nighthawk, juliann, kevin barney, scott lloyd, nevo, greg taggert, pahoran, cinepro . . . .

If you look at the posts many of the issues are similar. in my opinion the moderation was good and even handed as they were made up of both critics and apologists. The sight definitely died because the best apologists left for the FAIR boards. As to their motivations for doing so I can't say.

It seems like in the early years the FAIR boards were nearly as good.


If I recall correctly, I always remember that Pacumeni was working on a book to be published. Did anything come of that? Does Pacumeni post anywhere else under a different name?

Phaedrus
_richardMdBorn
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Post by _richardMdBorn »

beastie wrote:Here's another early thread that shows posters who have familiarity with UTLMB

http://p079.ezboard.com/fpacumenispages ... D=49.topic

I noted Pac's sig line:

-- The Tanners' mantra for 30 years has been that the Church censors its own teachings and history. Yet, as soon as they put up a message board and Latter-day Saints show up to show where they are wrong, the Tanners engage in suppression themselves.


I don't think Pac posts anywhere anymore, but I could be wrong. He really did try to be nonpartisan, so I doubt he would approve of FAIR/MAD's moderating style, but I wanted to share his quote to demonstrate that LDS believers fled UTLMB due to the oppressive, biased, moderating of webguy, but have now evolved into MAD.

I never posted on UTLMB, so I can't directly compare the two, but it's hard for me to believe MAD is any less partisan and biased than webguy once was.

by the way, one of the most obvious differences between the very early days of ZLMB and its later days wasn't in the ratio of critics to believer, but in this: at the beginning, most of the critics were EV Christians from UTLMB. In the later days, most of the critics were secular.

LDS believers viewed the early days of ZLMB as the halcyon days. My opinion is that is due to a preference for debating EVs rather than secular critics.
Hi Beastie,

I posted on both UTLM and ZLMB. I met Webguy when I visited the Tanners' bookstore in 2002. His rationale for moderating was to keep UTLM a safe place for former LDS to post at without being overwhelmed by LDS. I think the word irony is overused; but if there ever was a place for it the current situation at FAIR is ironical after all the LDS bitching on ZLMB about UTLM.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Hi Beastie,

I posted on both UTLM and ZLMB. I met Webguy when I visited the Tanners' bookstore in 2002. His rationale for moderating was to keep UTLM a safe place for former LDS to post at without being overwhelmed by LDS. I think the word irony is overused; but if there ever was a place for it the current situation at FAIR is ironical after all the LDS bitching on ZLMB about UTLM.


Oh, yes, it is textbook irony.

Webguy would have been better off just not allowing "defense of the faith", like RFM. That is the exact reason they don't allow it. RFM is for exbelievers, and they put up with being nagged and preached at by church leaders and often family members in "real life", and they need a refuge from that somewhere. So it's RFM. And yet that bugs the patootie out of believers, too (which gives lie to juliann's assertions Mormons aren't bothered when they're not welcome on boards). They continue to troll it regularly regardless.

I think that the final irony will be that MAD will eventually morph into something similar to RFM. It may never ban, completely, nonbelievers, but they will be extremely restricted in what they can say. (which is true on RFM, believers can get away with a certain amount of carefully controlled posting) If even in their current state, where the moderating is so openly biased, and critics are kept on a very short leash, they are having problems with believers feeling overwhelmed with attacks, then that's the only solution. They don't want just a sunday school board, but one with carefully controlled criticism.

I wouldn't take so much pleasure in the irony except for the fact that Juliann was so certain she could set up a board that could do it better than Z.... which was strange given her posting style and history at Z. Guess what, Juliann. You have the same problems Z had. Maybe someone will create an even more restricted board and everyone will flee there. Certainly there are very few serious apologists left on MAD, from what I can tell. I guess they just gave up on the whole thing. Can't say I blame them. Like I said, they have a tough row to hoe.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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