I Took the D&C Challenge--How'd I Do?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Ray A

Re: I Took the D&C Challenge--How'd I Do?

Post by _Ray A »

asbestosman wrote:Why, Ray's test almost sounds doable in comparison.


Yes, some kind of imitation is always easy with Google, Wikipedia, and Don undoubtedly has read the D&C multiple times. So here's what I say: Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
_DonBradley
_Emeritus
Posts: 1118
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 6:58 am

Re: I Took the D&C Challenge--How'd I Do?

Post by _DonBradley »

Ray A wrote:
asbestosman wrote:
Ray A wrote:Here's my challenge to you - produce 521 pages of scripture like the Book of Mormon

That's not the challenge God gives in D&C 67. He doesn't say write a whole book. He says to try making one little revelation like a sectio nof the D&C (or Book of Commandments at the time).


That was my challenge - unrelated to the one in Section 67. MY guess is that no one can meet my challenge.

Even so, what Don produced is a poor imitation, and a very short one. He seems to believe that no one replied because they were "stumped". He hasn't received many replies here either. I think even some exmos can see this is not a serious imitation. But then, I'm perhaps being a little too generous in that thinking.


Hi Ray,

I didn't say this was "a serious imitation." I think it follows a good deal in the style of the D&C revelations. But, as I indicated previously, it was spontaneous, with no pre-planning, and I tried to avoid being too serious in the content. My real point is that writing in the style of the D&C revelations is not terribly difficult, and that if I could write substantially in that style off-the-cuff, then a more serious attempt, with forethought, could doubtless produce fullscale "revelations."

It's also noteworthy that some of Joseph Smith's revelations were quite brief, and that the D&C 67 challenge was to write a revelation like "the least" of Smith's. Smith also gained experience with the process of producing these revelations, and greatly improved with time, as can be seen by comparing the awkward, indirect style of his first three revelations--D&C 3, 4, and 5 (in its original form)--with the revelations that follow.

Don
_DonBradley
_Emeritus
Posts: 1118
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 6:58 am

Re: I Took the D&C Challenge--How'd I Do?

Post by _DonBradley »

Don, you don't seriously believe this is a good mime, do you?


I think it's decent. I could have done better.

For a start look at how short this is, and it took you 25 minutes to write that?


You're missing a few crucial points, Ray. First, I wrote without preplanning. Joseph Smith's revelations were produced in contexts he would have had time to consider, usually at length, before producing a revelation to address them. Second, Smith's revelations would have been produced more slowly than you seem to think--especially his early ones ostensibly through the seerstone. It seems nearly certain that Smith would have had the scribe read back each revelatory phrase after he dictated it

I would say no one replied because it was such a poor imitation. If it was a serious and good imitation you probably would have received responses. The truth is they've dismissed it.


WHY have they dismissed it? Is the style really that different? How? Explain it to me, in detail.

The truth is that most LDS would never acknowledge even a far, far better imitation than this--ANY imitation--as meeting the D&C 67 challenge, for the same reason that Muslims won't acknowledge the imitation Qur'anic suras.

Can you write something like Section 76 in one sitting?


No. But where is the evidence that Joseph Smith could, especially at the beginning of his career when he lacked experience? D&C 76 was likely a joint production of Smith and Rigdon--the co-visionaries referred to as "we" in the text, and I know of no evidence that it was dictated as it stands on the first attempt or on the spot. Smith himself often edited his own revelations, sometimes to remove ungrammatical phrases or inconsistent ideas (like John the Baptist being baptized in his mother's womb). Notably, Smith produced D&C 76 only after he had acquired four years of experience with dictating revelations. And if Smith produced D&C 76 he would have first concocted his experience of the vision itself, and would thus have had preplanned material for the document.

In the presence of peers who observe you go through it without long pauses?


Give me some practice, and who knows? But, again, you only assume there were no long pauses, when, in fact, Smith's known practice of having scribes read back the dictated text would have given him more time to compose as he dictated.

Here's my challenge to you - produce 521 pages of scripture like the Book of Mormon in just over two months, without notes, with witnesses observing you dictating word after word, resuming after breaks exactly where you left off without reference to notes. After you do this submit it to a publisher, where it will thereafter be published for the world to examine, and be accepted by millions as the word of God. Scholars like Michael Coe must say of your work, "this has never been done before"!


Hmm. Well, you and God seem to have different standards. For him it was enough to imitate "the least" of the D&C revelations. But you want me to waste an enormous amount of time and effort just to show you what you should be able to figure out for yourself--that human beings can perform fantastic feats.

This kind of argument that if I couldn't produce a work with the same impact as the Book of Mormon, God must have done it simply stinks.

One might just as well come up with a variety of other challenges in which a skeptic must duplicate a gifted person's feat in order to show they were not inspired of God. You don't believe the Beatles were divinely inspired? Alright, then you produce scores of hits and revolutionize contemporary music in less than a decade. You don't believe the guy who invented Jell-O was inspired? Then you come up with something comparable. We could go on and on through thousands and thousands--and more--of great achievements. Those of Einstein, Mozart, George W. Bush (let's see you get elected chief executive!), Harrison Ford (can you act like that?), et al.........

If you don't match their achievements before you die, I'll know that all those in history who achieved more than you were inspired of God.

Don
_DonBradley
_Emeritus
Posts: 1118
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 6:58 am

Re: I Took the D&C Challenge--How'd I Do?

Post by _DonBradley »

Ray A wrote:
asbestosman wrote:
Ray A wrote:Here's my challenge to you - produce 521 pages of scripture like the Book of Mormon

That's not the challenge God gives in D&C 67. He doesn't say write a whole book. He says to try making one little revelation like a sectio nof the D&C (or Book of Commandments at the time).


That was my challenge - unrelated to the one in Section 67. MY guess is that no one can meet my challenge.


I think no one is supposed to be able to meet God's challenge either. My point is that it's clearly within the range of human abilities to do so.

Don
_DonBradley
_Emeritus
Posts: 1118
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 6:58 am

Post by _DonBradley »

asbestosman wrote:Oh, and Don. I can't be a fair judge. None of us can. What we really need is for some kind of multiple choice thing where lots of people submit fake revelations with one obscure but true revelation and then we have people try to discern the true one. THAT would be a fair test, but something tells me that such a fair and partially blind test was not offered to those attempting to undertake this activity.


Good thought, AM. Maybe I'll try that.

Don
_Inconceivable
_Emeritus
Posts: 3405
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:44 am

Post by _Inconceivable »

Don,

I thought it was pretty amazing assuming you weren't even using a rock and sombrero.


Now Ray,

I'm one of those apostates that is unwilling to discard many of the good principles I've assimulated from the Book of Mormon. 500 pages in a few months, not bad unless you're just pulling it out of a hat (pardon the pun). My contention is that Smith had very little understanding of what he brought to the publisher. If he ever read it after dictating it, it can be judged by his duplicitous charactor that he discounted many of it's principles. I don't believe it had much value to him. For all I know, he stole it from a real prophet while throwing him under a bus.

That being said, Smith had the book of Abraham for how many years and fabricated/translated how many pages? And the literal "translation" was and is a trainwreck. How about the Bible? Or the Kinderhook plates? (jab) He labored over them for years but completed NONE of them. If he did "translate"/dictate the Book of Mormon he certainly lost his "gift" shortly after he said, "the end".

I just don't think he was bonafide.
_The Dude
_Emeritus
Posts: 2976
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:16 am

Re: I Took the D&C Challenge--How'd I Do?

Post by _The Dude »

DonBradley wrote:Behold and lo, I come quickly, to judge the righteous and the wicked according to that which they post. Wherefore, O Ice, look to thyself. Amen.


LOL

Great job, Don. I'd say ye beat the D&C challenge! Wa-hoo!




You know what the D&C is? It's a bunch of message board posts. Some contain pithy wisdom. Some tell fortunes. Some bear threats. All of them are framed by a bogus pretense as transmissions from Elohim, Great God of the Universe (or maybe just this Universe). They are a bunch of message board posts written in an affected-scriptural style.

Behold:

Dude 6:29
Who likes reading the D&C? Parts of the Book of Mormon are worth reading, maybe, but the D&C is a big bore.

Dude 6:29
I've got tons of message board posts that I wrote on the fly, and they've got every bit as much wisdom and truth as the Doctrine and Covenants. And they are much better for reading.

Dude 6:29
It's true if you ask me. I testify of myself, just like Joseph Smith did through so many of his own writing and stories. You think you are as good as me? I challenge any of you mere mortals, even the least that is among you, to make a bunch of awesome posts like mine or even just one kick ass post, on this board or any other.

Dude 6:29
The Dude abides. Adieu.
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

The Dude abides. Adieu.


And we all take comfort in that.


Don't worry, Don. I'm sure no one has imitated a Koran verse to the satisfaction of its True Believers, either.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

Here's my favorite D&C verse. How can anyone doubt that the LORD was speaking through Joseph Smith? After telling Emma she had to accept all of Joseph Smith' plural wives, the LORD then told her:

132:54
And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will abide this commandment she shall be DESTROYED, saith the Lord: for I am the Lord thy Go , and will DESTROY HER IF SHE ABIDE NOT IN MY LAW.

Yes, indeed, one would have to be hardened of heart not to hear God's voice in that.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Some Schmo
_Emeritus
Posts: 15602
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:59 pm

Post by _Some Schmo »

I thought it was pretty good too. I'd imagine the reason Don didn't get a lot of replies over on MAD is that people were busy trying to digest and dissect it and interpret the deeper meaning, as though it actually came from god.

From the book of Schmo, Chapter 18, v 2-11

2. And they were a great multitude of people, who did speak under heavy rule, and did speak but whose words were unspoken by those who did control their words.
3. And they were righteous in the eye of their minds, but blind was that eye, for it could not see their blindness.
4. And yay, verily I say unto you, that an eye that doeth shine blind is an eye of ungoodly report.
5. And so it was that the people who could not see did think they could see but seeing was the least of them, for they could not see that which they could not see.
6. And the Lord said unto them, be ye not a people who rely on the dog of sight, for when thou open thein own eye, thou willst cease to trip over thein own circumstances.
7. Neither should thou rely on the pig of sight, for the pig doeth wallow in his own swath of amimal fat cooked pastries, and beith as blind as the saints which he doeth profess to lead, yet cannot see past his own chin of chins.
8. Neither the dog, nor the pig, nor the rabid cow of death, nor the monkey nor the shark, nor the elephant nor the cow, nor the insect nor the whale, for all animals are blind in the way of the world to the extent to which they see it.
9. Follow not into temptation the feral breath of the evil, for the blind which doeth not see cannot see me, for my light hath blinded them.
10. And be ye not tempted to touch they private regions on thein own accord, for that as well doeth lead to blindness.
11. Thus sayeth the Schmo.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
Post Reply