Claiming you know Vs. actually Knowing

[_Sam Harris]

I'm not asking him to prove anything. Coffee, I never have and NEVER will try to get an atheist to believe in God again. After the things you've described from war, I'd be a complete asshole to try to witness to you, because how can I in my inexperience witness to you?

What I'm asking Merc to do is give breathing room. He refuses to do that. He's just on the opposite end of the fundamentalist spectrum. He hates those who believe that EVERYONE must believe in God...but he thinks that EVERYONE must reject that belief.

There are so many in middle ground on this. Why can't we be happy with this?

I'm calling him on his s*** because he's full of it.

[_Mr. Coffee]

He's just on the opposite end of the fundamentalist spectrum. He hates those who believe that EVERYONE must believe in God...but he thinks that EVERYONE must reject that belief.

I'm pretty much in that same boat. I've seen the damage run away religion can do and I honestly cannot fathom why someone would choose to believe in such a way or even believe in a being that would condone such actions. I especially cannot understand the sort of midset that would cause someone to set aside rational thinking and empirical evidence for guesses and "faith".

I also understand that the majority of religious people aren't that bad, but the problem is, they are a silent majority that usually allow the fundimentalist fringe to speak for them as a group. You see this very easilly in the US in the form of the religious "right" who've managed to usurp the entire Republican part in the last thirty years and you see it in the Islamic world in the form of Muslims that say "terrorism is bad" yet allow the fundimentalist Islamics to hide among them.

Point is, having blind faith in ANYTHING is a de facto admission that that person is bording on being incapible of rational thought.

But that's just my two cents. Take it as you will.

There are so many in middle ground on this. Why can't we be happy with this?

I'd be willing to do so. The problem is the affore mentioned highly vocal fundimentalists (Like our own Gaz) who cannot seem to understand that there are people who do not want to hear their "message" and believe that anyone who doesn't believe as they do are "evil" or "sinners" (Never mind the irony on the part of "Christians" who pull this judgemental horses***).

On the otherhand you also have people like Merc who are every bit as vocal about their disbelief (Merc, don't kid yourself. You're not an Atheist, you're an Anti-theist. There is a difference).

I'm calling him on his s*** because he's full of it.

Yes, by calling on him to disprove your belief instead of adhering to your conviction that we should all "get along".

See the error in that logic, GIMR?

[_The Nehor]

Overlooking the Bednar thread the irritating assurance of knowledge concerning the unknowable makes me uneasy. Remember folks, just because you say something is known by you does not make it true.

The Mormon method of proving something true is an exercise in circular reasoning and convincing oneself that obvious contradictions do not exist. Saying that you know joe saw god in the grove does not make it so. The ONLY thing that makes it so is hard evidence. Emotional experiences do not confirm truth. They just confirm that there was a shift in your brain chemistry, an easy thing to induce in a gullible party.

Not true at all. If nothing without hard evidence is true then virtually nothing is true. I can't provide hard evidence as to what time I got up this morning. Want to dispute with me over it? It can't be true without HARD EVIDENCE. Calling what I call the Spirit an emotional experience is to not know the experience.

Your silly semantics games are an attempt at justifying your denial of the fact I made a valid point.

You got up on time. That is hard to dispute as I am sure you get up every day. How often does hard evidence for God come accost? Never.

No, I said that I got up at a specific time which you only have my word for not whether or not I got up. I have loads of evidence that there is a God some of which I've shared here. You've either rejected it, mocked it, or ignored it.

[_asbestosman]

You've either rejected it, mocked it, or ignored it.

What else could he do? Accept it? Somehow I suspect that last option is highly unlikely. In fact, I suspect there may be reasons evidence for God should not be accepted without a spiritual witness. Ever heard of the Babel Fish?

[_Sam Harris]

He's just on the opposite end of the fundamentalist spectrum. He hates those who believe that EVERYONE must believe in God...but he thinks that EVERYONE must reject that belief.

I'm pretty much in that same boat. I've seen the damage run away religion can do and I honestly cannot fathom why someone would choose to believe in such a way or even believe in a being that would condone such actions. I especially cannot understand the sort of midset that would cause someone to set aside rational thinking and empirical evidence for guesses and "faith".

I also understand that the majority of religious people aren't that bad, but the problem is, they are a silent majority that usually allow the fundimentalist fringe to speak for them as a group. You see this very easilly in the US in the form of the religious "right" who've managed to usurp the entire Republican part in the last thirty years and you see it in the Islamic world in the form of Muslims that say "terrorism is bad" yet allow the fundimentalist Islamics to hide among them.

Point is, having blind faith in ANYTHING is a de facto admission that that person is bording on being incapible of rational thought.

But that's just my two cents. Take it as you will.

There are so many in middle ground on this. Why can't we be happy with this?

I'd be willing to do so. The problem is the affore mentioned highly vocal fundimentalists (Like our own Gaz) who cannot seem to understand that there are people who do not want to hear their "message" and believe that anyone who doesn't believe as they do are "evil" or "sinners" (Never mind the irony on the part of "Christians" who pull this judgemental horses***).

On the otherhand you also have people like Merc who are every bit as vocal about their disbelief (Merc, don't kid yourself. You're not an Atheist, you're an Anti-theist. There is a difference).

I'm calling him on his s*** because he's full of it.

Yes, by calling on him to disprove your belief instead of adhering to your conviction that we should all "get along".

See the error in that logic, GIMR?

Coffee,

It is two in the morning, and only because I care about this issue so deeply am I even awake typing to you. No, we more liberal Christians are NOT a slient majority. You just haven't gotten to know us. Just because one asshole shouts loud doesn't mean that many others aren't speaking. As far as the fundamentalist right, haven't you been reading the news? The GOP is losing the evangelical vote.

There are many different types of Christians out there. And we are all a part of the body of Christ, most willing to work together not only with each other, but with people of different faiths to improve this world. But if you only want to see bad in religion, you aren't going to take the time to look for this. If you precondition yourself to see evil in man's spiritual life, you won't bother looking. Well, I choose not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'm sorry, but I cannot. And it's not because my life has been a piece of cake. I didn't have to go away to war, I was born into one. It's over now. I found God in the midst of it and He kept me. Screw what Merc or any other scared exmo has to say about that. When you know you should not be alive, when you walk into a hospital with something most people come in on a stretcher with and walk out of it with something that most people come out of in a body bag, when you suffer like I have and see what I have seen....don't you know about suffering? You've told some doozies of stories....do I need to go tell some to tell you why I have faith? Hmmm?

Why are you still going on about blind faith? Who here has said anything about blind faith? See? This is the fundamentalism again? There's fundamentalist religion and fundamentalist atheism. Neither wants to see the other side. I do not have blind faith, but I also know that there are some things I cannot control. I do not look at the Bible as inerrant, and I look at the world from a progressive and postmodern point of view. You'd be surprised how many Christians do.

Coffee, please tell me why it is ok for Merc to just up and abuse people for consciously choosing to be Mormon or choosing to believe in God (and he's effing vicious with it, it's making me sick), but not ok for Gaz to witness his religion in his weird bassackwards way?

Also, point where I have called Merc to disprove my belief? He cannot. He's weak in my eyes. Very VERY much so. I pity him. He's a sad, ranting little boy who hits on other people because daddy hit on him. I have no respect for that.

I asked him what his great solution to the problem of religion was and Sir Brilliant never gave it.

Now, Coffee. You've given us some really poignant insights into what you've been through serving our country. You've also shown us how easy it is (and how realistic it is) to lose faith. How about seeing it from another point of view? How about being born into another type of war? Am I just clinging to a pretend friend? Is my life just luck? Chance? Or is there an order here? Why would someone be called to suffer so much, be brought to the brink of death so many times only to be brought back again, endure so much....

and yet have such peace?

Hmmm?

[_Mr. Coffee]

It is two in the morning, and only because I care about this issue so deeply am I even awake typing to you. No, we more liberal Christians are NOT a slient majority.

Let's see... Who's more reconizable and/or more politically influential.... The average politically moderate Christian group or the far-Right Fundimentalist Group (700 Club ring any bells)? I'll believe that mainstream Christianity isn't a silent majority lead around by a bunch of loud-mouthed fundimentalist zealots when I open my paper and rad a headline that says "Christian Coalition Told To Shut Up By XYZ Church of Christ".

You just haven't gotten to know us. Just because one asshole shouts loud doesn't mean that many others aren't speaking.

There is a difference between speaking and being heard. To bad it's the assholes that are being heard. Try speaking a little louder. From the diaphram, not the ribs.

As far as the fundamentalist right, haven't you been reading the news? The GOP is losing the evangelical vote.

[Start Rant Mode]
I think you've got that backwards. The GOP is trying to distance itself from the Fundimentalist Evangelicals. Part of the whole NeoConservative backlash I've been telling people was coming for years.

But even then, you missed my point. Christianity/Religion is taking over my politics. When was the last time you heard a canidate say that they were not religious? You never have because EVERYONE plays the religion card. It's always "Thank Jesus" this and "Praise the Lord" that with a generous helping of political doublespeak when asked a diract question about an issue.

See, I've got no problem with people worshipping as the wish (as long as they don't hurt anyone else). I just want religion out of my Politics and my Government, the way the Foundinf Fathers of this Great Nation intended. Religion has no place in rational real politik, it has no place in rational governence, and it has no buisness being made an issue that decides who will be leading our nation.
[/End Rant Mode]

But if you only want to see bad in religion, you aren't going to take the time to look for this. If you precondition yourself to see evil in man's spiritual life, you won't bother looking.

You misunstand me, GIMR. I never said that religion is incapible of doing good works. I said that I have seen the damage that runaway religious fundimentalism can do. The point when Religion starts to cross into teritory where it can start doing damage is when it enters politics and subverts otherwise rational minds to accepting irrational concepts and premises as matters of "faith".

Seen that happen on three continents.

Well, I choose not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'm sorry, but I cannot. And it's not because my life has been a piece of cake. I didn't have to go away to war, I was born into one. It's over now. I found God in the midst of it and He kept me. Screw what Merc or any other scared exmo has to say about that. When you know you should not be alive, when you walk into a hospital with something most people come in on a stretcher with and walk out of it with something that most people come out of in a body bag, when you suffer like I have and see what I have seen....don't you know about suffering? You've told some doozies of stories....do I need to go tell some to tell you why I have faith? Hmmm?

Some people find faith while others loose it. Also, some people find faith and use it as a source of hope and inspiration, while other find it and use it as a motivation for futher evil in the name of their new "god". By the same token, some people loose faith and try to find the good in people or just try to offset the damage they've seen faith do, while other loose it and become bitter and angry at the loss and lash out at those that still have it.

Though I wouldn't mind hearing your story, GIMR. But that'd be for another thread, I suppose.

Oh, by the way... Merc isn't an Atheist. He's an Antitheist. The two are not the same.

This is the fundamentalism again? There's fundamentalist religion and fundamentalist atheism. Neither wants to see the other side.

Exactly. But let me ask you this, when has mainstream Christianity ever even TRIED to "see the otherside" when it comes to Atheism? You can tell who well that works just by seeing how many openly Atheistic people serve in our Congress. I know of only one and he's from San Francisco, a town so liberal it had a gay mayor (not sure if the guy is still in office anymore).

It's one thing to have the religious and Atheists talk and exchange ideas on this forum. It's another thing entirely for such an exchange to take place in the real world at even the state level, much less the federal.

Coffee, please tell me why it is ok for Merc to just up and abuse people for consciously choosing to be Mormon or choosing to believe in God (and he's effing vicious with it, it's making me sick), but not ok for Gaz to witness his religion in his weird bassackwards way?

GIMR, show me where I ever said it was ok for him to do so? Please don't put words in my mouth, that sort of behavior I'd expect from morons like Scooter or ALitD, but it's beneath an intelligent and educated woman like yourself.

Also, point where I have called Merc to disprove my belief?

Ahem... "LOL, are we foaming at the mouth again? Where did you PROVE that God is a figment of my imagination?"

I'll chalk you forgetting what you said to you having wrote your reply to me at 2am.

He cannot. He's weak in my eyes. Very VERY much so. I pity him. He's a sad, ranting little boy who hits on other people because daddy hit on him. I have no respect for that.

Careful, dear... You're loosing that Christ-like demenor and slipping into irrational fundi mode there.

I asked him what his great solution to the problem of religion was and Sir Brilliant never gave it.

I can provide a solution. Bar religion from government starting at the elections running all the way till a given politician retires. Allow people to freely exercise their faith or lack of faith as they see fit provided they don't harm anyone else.

There, problem solved. The religious can stay religious, and those without religion can finally have a real say in our political process.

You've also shown us how easy it is (and how realistic it is) to lose faith. How about seeing it from another point of view?

I am. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation, Your Mighty Goddessness (Soory, had to toss a shot about your recient 1000th post mark).

How about being born into another type of war?

There are more kinds of warfare than I can convienently list, GIMR. Pretty much anything you do in life that has an advasarial aspect to it can be considered a form of warfare.

Why would someone be called to suffer so much, be brought to the brink of death so many times only to be brought back again, endure so much....

Maybe "god" has a plan for you. Or, maybe you're just to stubborn to give up and die that easilly? Could be either depending on your point of veiw.

and yet have such peace?

Peace can come from many things, religion, love, friendship, or even simple pleasures like a good soak in a hot bath while reading a book. If your faith brings you peace, then more power to you.

[_Sam Harris]

It is two in the morning, and only because I care about this issue so deeply am I even awake typing to you. No, we more liberal Christians are NOT a slient majority.

Let's see... Who's more reconizable and/or more politically influential.... The average politically moderate Christian group or the far-Right Fundimentalist Group (700 Club ring any bells)? I'll believe that mainstream Christianity isn't a silent majority lead around by a bunch of loud-mouthed fundimentalist zealots when I open my paper and rad a headline that says "Christian Coalition Told To Shut Up By XYZ Church of Christ".

Try reading online instead of watching TV. You won't get the exposure on TV.

You just haven't gotten to know us. Just because one asshole shouts loud doesn't mean that many others aren't speaking.

There is a difference between speaking and being heard. To bad it's the assholes that are being heard. Try speaking a little louder. From the diaphram, not the ribs.

Again, reading online is the best way. I can provide some links if you like.

As far as the fundamentalist right, haven't you been reading the news? The GOP is losing the evangelical vote.

[Start Rant Mode]
I think you've got that backwards. The GOP is trying to distance itself from the Fundimentalist Evangelicals. Part of the whole NeoConservative backlash I've been telling people was coming for years.

But even then, you missed my point. Christianity/Religion is taking over my politics. When was the last time you heard a canidate say that they were not religious? You never have because EVERYONE plays the religion card. It's always "Thank Jesus" this and "Praise the Lord" that with a generous helping of political doublespeak when asked a diract question about an issue.

See, I've got no problem with people worshipping as the wish (as long as they don't hurt anyone else). I just want religion out of my Politics and my Government, the way the Foundinf Fathers of this Great Nation intended. Religion has no place in rational real politik, it has no place in rational governence, and it has no buisness being made an issue that decides who will be leading our nation.
[/End Rant Mode]

[/quote]

Sorry....but I saw this in the paper the other day, and apparently others are seeing this too. Maybe you saw what you saw in the paper, and some folks are writing from another perspective?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15357623/site/newsweek/

http://atheism.about.com/b/a/258303.htm

http://www.thedemocraticstrategist.org/ ... voters.php

http://www.newpartisan.com/home/losing- ... icals.html

But if you only want to see bad in religion, you aren't going to take the time to look for this. If you precondition yourself to see evil in man's spiritual life, you won't bother looking.

You misunstand me, GIMR. I never said that religion is incapible of doing good works. I said that I have seen the damage that runaway religious fundimentalism can do. (try focusing your statements on that instead of making blanket ones, because you haven't been that specific in the past) The point when Religion starts to cross into teritory where it can start doing damage is when it enters politics and subverts otherwise rational minds to accepting irrational concepts and premises as matters of "faith".

Seen that happen on three continents.
[/quote]

People use God to justify quarrels over land all the time. It's nothing new. Don't blame God, blame the stupid men behind the wars.

Well, I choose not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'm sorry, but I cannot. And it's not because my life has been a piece of cake. I didn't have to go away to war, I was born into one. It's over now. I found God in the midst of it and He kept me. Screw what Merc or any other scared exmo has to say about that. When you know you should not be alive, when you walk into a hospital with something most people come in on a stretcher with and walk out of it with something that most people come out of in a body bag, when you suffer like I have and see what I have seen....don't you know about suffering? You've told some doozies of stories....do I need to go tell some to tell you why I have faith? Hmmm?

Some people find faith while others loose it. Also, some people find faith and use it as a source of hope and inspiration, while other find it and use it as a motivation for futher evil in the name of their new "god". By the same token, some people loose faith and try to find the good in people or just try to offset the damage they've seen faith do, while other loose it and become bitter and angry at the loss and lash out at those that still have it.

Well, Merc is the very last one you listed, and I'm sorry he's becoming an extreme pain the ass. I cannot explain away what you've been through, or try to erase what your eyes have seen, or heal the wounds. Only an arrogant person would try. Where you go from here is your journey, and it's up to you who you want to go with you. I use faith as a source of hope and inspiration, and I have ZERO TOLERANCE for those who use it for evil. Period. In Merc's way or in the fundamentalist way. Losing faith and trying to just offset the damage they've seen faith do, that's rational. That's ok.

Though I wouldn't mind hearing your story, GIMR. But that'd be for another thread, I suppose.

Oh, by the way... Merc isn't an Atheist. He's an Antitheist. The two are not the same.

It's beginning in the Off Topic forum, and it'll most definitely be interjected with clubs over the head at the two resident punks who just want to whinge about pretend friends. It'll be long, and when I finish posting to you, I'll be napping for the afternoon. The "point" I won't get to for a while. Please bear with me. *blush*

Is Antitheist a synonym for a**?

This is the fundamentalism again? There's fundamentalist religion and fundamentalist atheism. Neither wants to see the other side.

Exactly. But let me ask you this, when has mainstream Christianity ever even TRIED to "see the otherside" when it comes to Atheism? You can tell who well that works just by seeing how many openly Atheistic people serve in our Congress. I know of only one and he's from San Francisco, a town so liberal it had a gay mayor (not sure if the guy is still in office anymore). [/quote]

You know, that's something I'm glad you brought forth. Because I'm the type of Christian would would like to see the other side. I believe I'm being called to ministry, but I also believe it's going to be a long hard road, because I'm not going to do things the traditional way, and I'm going to tick off a lot of people. I'm not going to persecute gays, I'm not going to shun atheists. I'm not going to turn away Mormons, etc. I want to address questions like the one you just posed. So perhaps I'll be one of the first. Maybe a female Spong...and many will hate me for it, though some will be glad I asked the question. I honestly want to see the other side. I think that is a discussion that is good to have, and maybe we can have it on here, without our twins muggling it up.

It's one thing to have the religious and Atheists talk and exchange ideas on this forum. It's another thing entirely for such an exchange to take place in the real world at even the state level, much less the federal.

True. Politics has never been a favorite interest of mine.

Coffee, please tell me why it is ok for Merc to just up and abuse people for consciously choosing to be Mormon or choosing to believe in God (and he's effing vicious with it, it's making me sick), but not ok for Gaz to witness his religion in his weird bassackwards way?

GIMR, show me where I ever said it was ok for him to do so? Please don't put words in my mouth, that sort of behavior I'd expect from morons like Scooter or ALitD, but it's beneath an intelligent and educated woman like yourself.

You think I have a brain? I feel flattered.... I'm just confused at why people defend his childish behavior. There is little principle in what he's doing. He's pissed because he has a Mormon family he can't escape. Because he loves them he will not take his frustrations out on them. But instead of being a MAN and finding a mature way to deal with the situation and finding middle ground, instead of finding a way to deal with his anger and disappointment, even if it means seeking therapy, he goes online and dumps his psychological waste anywhere he can find space, not caring who is affected. That is cowardly to say the very least. But he thinks it is cute. If I knew him in person, I'd take a running start and kick him in the nuts. Seriously.

Also, point where I have called Merc to disprove my belief?

Ahem... "LOL, are we foaming at the mouth again? Where did you PROVE that God is a figment of my imagination?"

I'll chalk you forgetting what you said to you having wrote your reply to me at 2am.

That kind of stings. :-)

He cannot. He's weak in my eyes. Very VERY much so. I pity him. He's a sad, ranting little boy who hits on other people because daddy hit on him. I have no respect for that.

Careful, dear... You're loosing that Christ-like demenor and slipping into irrational fundi mode there.

Coffee, my friend. Let me say one thing about that. This is not directed personally at you, but at those who feel that one must have one 24-7 in order to be a Christian. Because my walk with God is strong and I know He loves me unconditionally I say this:

F(*^& your Christlike demeanor. You either take me as a human or you don't take me at all. I do not appreciate those who do not believe in my God trying to hold me to some impossible standard just to try to trip me up so they can laugh at my weaknesses because they are secretly ashamed of their own. I am happily buckenekked before my God, thank you. You can be too.

I asked him what his great solution to the problem of religion was and Sir Brilliant never gave it.

I can provide a solution. Bar religion from government starting at the elections running all the way till a given politician retires. Allow people to freely exercise their faith or lack of faith as they see fit provided they don't harm anyone else.

There, problem solved. The religious can stay religious, and those without religion can finally have a real say in our political process.

Go to D.C. And remind capitol hill that they're supposed to have a separation of church and state, and to stop paying it lip service just to get votes.

You've also shown us how easy it is (and how realistic it is) to lose faith. How about seeing it from another point of view?

I am. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation, Your Mighty Goddessness (Soory, had to toss a shot about your recient 1000th post mark).

Careful, or I'll pull you into my budoir.

How about being born into another type of war?

There are more kinds of warfare than I can convienently list, GIMR. Pretty much anything you do in life that has an advasarial aspect to it can be considered a form of warfare.

Very true. I know all too well.

Why would someone be called to suffer so much, be brought to the brink of death so many times only to be brought back again, endure so much....

Maybe "god" has a plan for you. Or, maybe you're just to stubborn to give up and die that easilly? Could be either depending on your point of veiw.

I believe it to be the former. When you spend ten years being suicidal, you're hardly too stubborn to die. Maybe a little scared (then), but not too stubborn. I was afraid of the pain, but most definitely not stubborn. The human body has mechanisms that fight death itself, but I wasn't really trying to fight it back then. It wasn't until they threatened to strap me to the bed that I realized I had to find some way to will myself to live. Now I can't wait to get going each day. Ain't much changed in my circumstance, that's the crazy thing.

and yet have such peace?

Peace can come from many things, religion, love, friendship, or even simple pleasures like a good soak in a hot bath while reading a book. If your faith brings you peace, then more power to you.

If peace can come from all those things (notice I said including "religion"...I don't have that), I would have had it by now. I've done many things to try to alleviate my suffering. Something else has happened. I'll post more on the other thread, hopefully tweedletwit and tweedletwat will leave it be for the most part....

[_Jason Bourne]

Overlooking the Bednar thread the irritating assurance of knowledge concerning the unknowable makes me uneasy. Remember folks, just because you say something is known by you does not make it true.

The Mormon method of proving something true is an exercise in circular reasoning and convincing oneself that obvious contradictions do not exist. Saying that you know joe saw god in the grove does not make it so. The ONLY thing that makes it so is hard evidence. Emotional experiences do not confirm truth. They just confirm that there was a shift in your brain chemistry, an easy thing to induce in a gullible party.

Ok. My cynical hat is on.

The I know...this, that or the other thing is a LDS construct that keeps people in line and makes one part of the crowd. I wonder where the tradition of monthly testimony meeting arose and where the idea of bearing a testimony that containes the I know about certian elements came from .

But, to be part of the crowd you will want to know, and want to stand and say I know. Saying "I really believe this a lot" or "I have faith about these things but I really do not know" are all unacceptable. You are then viewed as defecient.

The idea of Elder Packer that a testimony is found in bearing it is even more nonesensical and I always thought it was. What say I know when I don't then I will? That sounds a lot like brainwashing to me.

Further, considert the LDS missionary. He/she goes at the prime time in life, for no pay and in fact most often pays for the privlidge, or the family does. If he spends all day every day doing this he will feel pretty stupid if he does not know pretty soon, even if he or she does not know when they start.

So, to say I know is even a pressure tactic to make sure you do know and once you know if you then think maybe you really did not know after all then you are asked "How can yuo deny that testimony you used to bear?"

It works well.

[_Mercury]

Overlooking the Bednar thread the irritating assurance of knowledge concerning the unknowable makes me uneasy. Remember folks, just because you say something is known by you does not make it true.

The Mormon method of proving something true is an exercise in circular reasoning and convincing oneself that obvious contradictions do not exist. Saying that you know joe saw god in the grove does not make it so. The ONLY thing that makes it so is hard evidence. Emotional experiences do not confirm truth. They just confirm that there was a shift in your brain chemistry, an easy thing to induce in a gullible party.

Ok. My cynical hat is on.

The I know...this, that or the other thing is a LDS construct that keeps people in line and makes one part of the crowd. I wonder where the tradition of monthly testimony meeting arose and where the idea of bearing a testimony that containes the I know about certian elements came from .

But, to be part of the crowd you will want to know, and want to stand and say I know. Saying "I really believe this a lot" or "I have faith about these things but I really do not know" are all unacceptable. You are then viewed as defecient.

The idea of Elder Packer that a testimony is found in bearing it is even more nonesensical and I always thought it was. What say I know when I don't then I will? That sounds a lot like brainwashing to me.

Further, considert the LDS missionary. He/she goes at the prime time in life, for no pay and in fact most often pays for the privlidge, or the family does. If he spends all day every day doing this he will feel pretty stupid if he does not know pretty soon, even if he or she does not know when they start.

So, to say I know is even a pressure tactic to make sure you do know and once you know if you then think maybe you really did not know after all then you are asked "How can yuo deny that testimony you used to bear?"

It works well.

Thank you Jason for the concise and clear approach to my post. I wish others would be so forthrght as you are instead of using t as a method of exorcising hidden ghosts in their familial experience.

GIMR? I think you reject atheism because you do not want to pattern your family.

[_Mr. Coffee]

Try reading online instead of watching TV. You won't get the exposure on TV.

I have. Been a member of the GOP since 1989. Watched this s*** happen from then tyill now. And it gets worse with every year.

Again, reading online is the best way. I can provide some links if you like.

Which is why I monitor seven differnt major news agencyies websites and then surf a dozen morth that aren't mainstream.

Pull yourself away from the "He don't believe in my GAWD" BS and read what I said.

Sorry....but I saw this in the paper the other day, and apparently others are seeing this too. Maybe you saw what you saw in the paper, and some folks are writing from another perspective?

Woiw, so your response to me saying that Christians are subverting my political system against the EXPLICITE wishes of the founding fathers of our nation is to quote worthless bulls*** that backs relgion...

And you ask why the Religious and the nonreligious cannot get along.... For all of your live and let live BSing, you still condemn the same as any other.

People use God to justify quarrels over land all the time. It's nothing new. Don't blame God, blame the stupid men behind the wars.

Ok, so explain why I shouldn't blame the entity that you or others would use to justify depriving me of my rights and property?


The fact that you posted something that moronic says volumes, Gimr...

Well, Merc is the very last one you listed, and I'm sorry he's becoming an extreme pain the ass.

That's between you and him. I honestly can';t give a rusty f-word about it.

I explained my position and golly gee, instead of adding something you started bracketing things as "christlike" or "not".

Is Antitheist a synonym for a**?

For f***'s sake, are you seriously going to play that semantiucal b***s*** on me, Gimr? If you can't tell the difference between a Theist, an Atheist, an Antitheist, and an Agnostic then you're less then hopeless.... And yes, I gelly do have a diagram to show you how that works out.

I think that is a discussion that is good to have, and maybe we can have it on here, without our twins muggling it up.

To bad you don't bother with adhering to that...

You think I have a brain? I feel flattered....

I did. Now I'mn starting to wonder....

I'm just confused at why people defend his childish behavior.

Here's a clue... ASK SOMEONE THAT SUPPORTS MERC'S ASSHOLERY! Quit asking me as I niether support or condone that s***.