harmony wrote:No. Indoctrination is again too strong a concept.
Primary is about teaching children a set of beliefs, and the parents have made the choice for their children that they be involved. Just because you (or Tarski or anyone else) objects to what is taught, says it's not true, etc., that has no bearing on a parent's right to choose what her child is taught and by whom. We as parents are not required to ask anyone else about efficacy of the decisions we make when we raise our children. Our rights as parents are protected by law. In other countries, maybe the government and/or the church steps in and makes that choice for the parents, but here, we're allowed to make family decisions without interference from anyone, including ex-Mormons.
PP may rant all he wants, but Primary is not brainwashing and it's not indoctrination. It's simply parents teaching their children what they believe and it's legal and it's relatively healthy. If anyone wants to complain about Primary, complain to your parents, not the church.
That's close to the silliest argument I've ever heard.
The Jamestown cult wasn't brainwashing kids, because the parents chose to take their kids there. If anyone wants to complain, they should complain to the parents, not the jamestown cult leaders.
Just because the parents choose to raise their kids that way, has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether the church is brainwashing children (yes, I'm still using that term, as it can have a broad meaning encompassing 'mind control').
Your basic premise is incorrect, Who Knows. If you don't accept that, it's not my fault.
How much plainer do I have to say it? Only adults can be brainwashed! Let me see if I can spell it out any plainer: children cannot be brainwashed. There. Is that understandable? Children cannot be brainwashed, because brainwashing is 1) RE education and 2) against one's will (children have no legal will).
Mind control of children is impossible, since children have no legal definition of will. You can have mind control of the parents, but not of the children. And if that's silly, don't blame me. Blame our founding fathers. (Children also have no legal rights in this country, but that's another thread.)
We complain repeatedly here about apologists who twist words andmake up definitions to suit themselves. Well, that's exactly what you're doing, Who Knows. Either work with the definition as it is, or get lumped into the Juliann camp.
Brainwashing is only possible for adults.
Children can be brainwashed and it is most often done by parents against another parent during or after divorce. It is called PAS, and it is a reality.
And children DO have legal rights. And yes, that is another thread.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Since the thread morphed into a discussion of hymns I thought I'd look at some online. I saw the Doxology listed
Praise God, from whom all blessings flow; Praise him, all creatures here below; Praise him above, ye heav’nly host; Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
Tarski wrote:Try imagining that you are see it for the fisr time as if you were from mars. Or, try replacing repeated references to Joseph Smith and by reference to L. Ron Hubbard and see how it strikes you. These little kids are too young for such repeated indoctinization about cosmic/religious matters of the kind that separates the world into religious sects. They are mentally helplessa and impressionable. I do think it is quite frightening. It certainly messed up my ability to think about religion with anything like objectivity and it took until I was 30 to come to my own opinions. I resent that I was subjected to it.
I appreciate what you're saying, Tarski, but I think your beef should be with ANY organized religion, and not just the LDS Church.
Big difference in those other religions(most) is that they do not foist the belief upon their children that there is a living man who actually talks to god/Jesus on a regular basis.
If you attend a Sunday School class in another Church, the kids are going to participate, and they are going to be taught things about that religion. And you're right. These kids don't have the ability to decipher things for themselves at a young age. That's what their parents are for. The parents have to decide what type of environment to raise their children in. It's also important for the parents to dialogue with kids beyond Sunday School, Primary, school, any type of organization where the kids are out of that parent's immediate care. As a parent, you have a responsibility to be involved in that organization. Come sit in the back of the room, or sit with your child's class. Be involved! If you don't like what's happening, change it, or yank them out.
You are so entrenched in the culture of LDS you cannot even see what your just wrote.
Not agreeing with the status quo in LDS is strictly verboten. The culture does not allow that.
You have no say what so ever when it comes to the content of the manuals, lessons, and curriculum.
This is one of those times when I just want to shake someone.
We complain here all the time that apologists don't hear our arguments. Well, geez, people. Why should they? I've demonstrated exactly why this concept does not apply to Primary children. It can't apply to children at all, [i]because children have no prior beliefs and children have no legal will[i], yet still we have critics who refuse to accept that.
Y'all are behaving just like the apologists, when faced with a definition they can't get around.
Find a different word, people. Brainwashing just isn't appropriate.
harmony wrote:This is one of those times when I just want to shake someone.
We complain here all the time that apologists don't hear our arguments. Well, geez, people. Why should they? I've demonstrated exactly why this concept does not apply to Primary children. It can't apply to children at all, [I]because children have no prior beliefs and children have no legal will[I], yet still we have critics who refuse to accept that.
Y'all are behaving just like the apologists, when faced with a definition they can't get around.
Find a different word, people. Brainwashing just isn't appropriate.
'
Actually harmony a child is anyone under the age of 18 and when they are converted into the Church they actually did have prior beliefs. I indoctrinate children all the time in the school system, I try to change their prior beliefs and behaviors (I work with children with emotional and behavioral disorders mostly) and I don't think it is a dirty word.
harmony wrote:Find a different word, people. Brainwashing just isn't appropriate.
How about it's "very bad teaching" children these views?
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
harmony wrote:This is one of those times when I just want to shake someone.
We complain here all the time that apologists don't hear our arguments. Well, geez, people. Why should they? I've demonstrated exactly why this concept does not apply to Primary children. It can't apply to children at all, [I]because children have no prior beliefs and children have no legal will[I], yet still we have critics who refuse to accept that.
Y'all are behaving just like the apologists, when faced with a definition they can't get around.
Find a different word, people. Brainwashing just isn't appropriate.
Militant indoctrination.
Forced indoctrination.
Passive misguided immoral indoctrination.
What ever you call it, Jason trusts it over his own will. Easy when you lack your own will.
Last edited by Ask Jeeves [Bot] on Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Primary is about teaching children a set of beliefs, and the parents have made the choice for their children that they be involved. Just because you (or Tarski or anyone else) objects to what is taught, says it's not true, etc., that has no bearing on a parent's right to choose what her child is taught and by whom. We as parents are not required to ask anyone else about efficacy of the decisions we make when we raise our children. Our rights as parents are protected by law. In other countries, maybe the government and/or the church steps in and makes that choice for the parents, but here, we're allowed to make family decisions without interference from anyone, including ex-Mormons.
So you think parents should have the right to teach their children anything? Hmmm. How about that the government is evil or that Jews and Blacks are subhuman or that there really are monsters under the bed ready to eat them if they don't be good?
PP may rant all he wants, but Primary is not brainwashing and it's not indoctrination.
It is if anything is.
Last edited by W3C [Validator] on Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
in·doc·tri·nate /ɪnˈdɒktrəˌneɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-dok-truh-neyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –verb (used with object), -nat·ed, -nat·ing. 1. to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., esp. to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view. 2. to teach or inculcate. 3. to imbue with learning.
barrelomonkeys wrote:Children can be brainwashed and it is most often done by parents against another parent during or after divorce. It is called PAS, and it is a reality.
That is not brainwashing, Book of Mormon. Sorry, but it doesn't fit the definition. Assertions do not make arguments.
And children DO have legal rights. And yes, that is another thread.