Does the teaching method in LDS Primary equal brainwashing?

[_harmony]

ah hem,
Harmony

ah hem... Tarski:

brain·wash [bráyn wòsh, bráyn wàwsh]
(past and past participle brain·washed, present participle brain·wash·ing, 3rd person present singular brain·wash·es)
transitive verb
1. impose beliefs on somebody: to impose a set of usually political or religious beliefs on somebody by the use of various coercive methods of indoctrination, including destruction of the victim's prior beliefs

Children in Primary do not have prior beliefs. Thus they cannot be brainwashed.

2. condition somebody to behave differently: to induce somebody to believe or do something, e.g. to buy a new product, especially by means of constant repetition or advertising

Microsoft® Encarta® 2006. © 1993-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

The key word is "differently", Tarski. Children in Primary are learning to behave/believe the first time. Thus they are not taught to behave "differently". They are not being taught to change.

And once a week does not come anywhere near "constant repetition".

[_harmony]

Unless, of course, you're saying that the 2 basic premises for brainwashing are not required? (a reminder of that those are: 1) prior beliefs, and 2) against one's will).

Says who?

Says Wiki and Encarta and any other definition of the word.

[_Who Knows]

Unless, of course, you're saying that the 2 basic premises for brainwashing are not required? (a reminder of that those are: 1) prior beliefs, and 2) against one's will).

Says who?

Says Wiki and Encarta and any other definition of the word.

Says wiki. Encarta didn't say that. The definition's i posted didn't say that?

So what? the point is, is that it's a very general term used to describe inducing or convincing someone to do or believe something they wouldn't otherwise normally do - through coercion or repetition.

Additionally, I disagree with you about children not having prior beliefs. I think they do.

Let me ask you this - do you think the jonestown children were not brainwashed? (i'm assuming so, since you maintain that children cannot be brainwashed).

[_barrelomonkeys]

Then our discussion is done, because this thread is about Primary.

I'll carry on without you then. You stated two things that I disagreed with that really do not have anything to do with primary. You stated that children can not be brainwashed and that children have no legal rights. I believe both of those are false and commented on those assertions.

Children do not have rights until they reach the age of consent (usually 14-16, depending on the state). Thus, by definition, children in Primary (the subject of the thread) do not have rights.

Children do have rights. Legal rights. Again, I suggest you google that. Why do you think I take the ethic courses? Children are protected and have legal rights.

Didn't they go over the concept of legal will, and children's rights, and how those rights are subjucated to parents rights? And what your legal obligations are? Geez... did you go to school in Utah or something?

No, I've never been to Utah. I have a degree in political science with an emphasis in pre-law. Once a month I can be found at a women's shelter and I help an attorney with pro bono work that includes children as clients. I'm pretty familiar with the rights children have. Please google before you continue this discussion with me. They have rights separate from their parents.

Can I ask you why you're being so rude to me?

I'm saying that children in Primary are nowhere near the age of consent, and thus are not subject to brainwashing. I'm saying that 3 hear olds are a clean slate, and have no beliefs of their own. Any beliefs they have are tied to their parents' beliefs. And anyone who says a 3 year old has a testimony of the truthfulness of the church is simply unbelievable.

I never said they were being brainwashed Harmony. Why don't you go pick on someone that is fighting about it with you?

[_Tarski]

ah hem,

And once a week does not come anywhere near "constant repetition".

Really?

I think you are dodging the obvious.

by the way, by your definition it is impossible to brainwash children since we aren't inducing them to change beliefs.

Here are the facts: In the church's system children, are induced to accept highly questionable beliefs by repetition and other conditioning (singing, praying, drawing, memorizing etc.) long before they are able to even begin to really think about the beliefs and their implications or the plausibility. The assertions are repeatedly made to them as if it were all unquestionable and a given and done so by parents and other adults who they think of as alomost gods and are unable to question. Emotional associations are fostered through singing and subjections to tearful crying testimonies that use words like "I know that blah blah blah".

And none of it is true to boot.

It looks very bad from my perspective and I think you are actually a victim yourself.

[_DonBradley]

No. Primary teaching is not "brain washing."

It's a form of acculturation. Children in all cultures are taught that some things as absolutes, and taught this before they have the ability to judge for themselves. If this were "brain washing," all children would be brain washed, and there would be nothing special about LDS children being brain washed as well.

The term "brain washing" was invented to describe Viet Namese methods of mental coercion on POWs--including heavy use of physical torture and deprivation. Since neither LDS nor other US religions (e.g., "the Moonies") use such methods, they don't "brain wash." The term is applied to them only, and precisely, because of its negative connotations--i.e., it is not a description, but a slur.

Don

[_Some Schmo]

The term "brain washing" was invented to describe Viet Namese methods of mental coercion on POWs--including heavy use of physical torture and deprivation. Since neither LDS nor other US religions (e.g., "the Moonies") use such methods, they don't "brain wash." The term is applied to them only, and precisely, because of its negative connotations--I.e., it is not a description, but a slur.

I think it's the negative connotations that are the point. Using the term is a value judgement.

Does the "acculturation" involve mostly good teachings? Then no, not brain washing. Does the "acculturation" involve mostly bad teachings? Then yes, brain washing.

When people say the church is brain washing the members, they're saying that what people are being mentally conditioned to think is bad.

So yeah, I think they're being brainwashed.

[_Jersey Girl]

Oh, everybody get a grip.

What you're all describing is religious indoctrination that is conducted in every single church/synagogue/temple on the planet and is not specific to the LDS Church. The term "brainwashing" is an appeal to emotion and disgusts me beyond belief.

Random comments:

The pictures of GBH or whomever that are used to each are nothing more than using "props" to introduce a subject/concept. In this case the props are photos. i knew a Primary teacher who made a Time Machine out of a refrigerator box and each week a different Bible figure would emerge to give a lesson about "themselves". Liz is right, these are standard teaching methods for young children.

The Doxology that monkeys posted. I don't know if it's used in the LDS church but it has been used in nearly every church I've attended which would include various Protestant and Catholic churches. It's akin to using the Lords Prayer.

The songs: Follow the Prophet. Liz kindly posted the lyrics in full. The songs are no more brain washing than these:

Jesus loves me this I know
For the Bible tells me so
Little ones to him belong
they are weak but he is strong
Yes, Jesus loves me
Yes, Jesus loves me
Yes, Jesus loves me
the Bible tells me so
------------------------------------------------------------------
I will make you fishers of men, fishers of men, fishers of men
If you follow me
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Praise him, praise him, all ye little children
God is love, God is love

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Do what it says, do what the Bible says
Don't just hear it with your ears, be a do-er of the Word
The Bible says to love
The Bible says to pray
The Bible says Be ye kind

(etc--that one is a "doo wop" song, love it. Taught it to a group of children in ASL.)


If you need me to pick out the indoctrination parts, I'll gladly do it. You might think of it as transmitting "Bible truths". Nothing more than religious indoctrination and children are subject to all sorts of indoctrination including socio-cultural indoctrination on the part of their parents. People who aren't overly obsessed with religion or the LDS church would call it transmitting ones values to their children....or what's the technical term? Oh yeah, parenting.

Where was I? Oh....using the phrase "I know" with very young children does bug me alot but I can cite many instances, not just religious ones, where parents transmit "absolute" truths to their children.

I know the police officer is my friend
(What about the one that's on the take?)

I know sports is a good thing to do
(Unless you're that Chris Benoit guy)

I know that playing with matches is not safe
(unless you're a high paid magician in Vegas)

I know that lying is wrong
(Why did I get punished for telling Aunt Lucy that's she's big and fat?)

Anyway...just some random stuff.

Jersey Girl

[_Jersey Girl]

Porter

Big difference in those other religions(most) is that they do not foist the belief upon their children that there is a living man who actually talks to god/Jesus on a regular basis.

Actually, a great majority of other regligions teach that ALL people can talk to God/Jesus on a regular basis and that includes the Pastors and Priests who lead them in group prayer.

[_Jersey Girl]

monkeys,

I'm hopping all over the existing thread. PAS...parent alienation syndrome? If that is what you meant, I agree, it's a type of brainwashing.