DCP and Quinn

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply

The Mike Quinn/gossip fiasco: What was DCP guilty of?

 
Total votes: 0

_Rollo Tomasi
_Emeritus
Posts: 4085
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:27 pm

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

rcrocket wrote:How did I manipulate a quote from the MMM article?

It's pretty obvious. You replaced certain words with ellipses to argue that no one (including Bagley) can rely on John D. Lee's Mormonism Unveiled because (thanks to your butchering) Bishop's letter to Lee seems to be say he will add facts relating to anything to spice up the story, including the MMM, when in fact Bishop limited his statement to facts "connected with the trial and the history of this case," i.e., the legal proceedings for which Bishop had personal knowledge. You clever slight-of-hand totally changed Bishop's meaning, and you know it.

You and your alter ego Scratch ...

Jumping on the DCP-bandwagon, I see.

After all, the article was a review of Bagley's book, and HE doesn't make this charge, and HE has admitted to me that perhaps it would have been wise to refer to the cited Bishop letter in his book. So HE doesn't see it the way you do. HE is the expert. Please cite my any expert source, Bagley included, which agrees with your reading of my article.

You don't have to be an "expert" to read plain English. Your cute little 'edit' utterly changed what Bishop was saying, and whether Bagley or someone else (like MS or me) point it out to you is immaterial -- you damn well knew what you were doing when you cut those few words in order to discredit the entirety of Lee's Mormonism Unveiled.

How can one accept the charges and claims of an anonymous poster? Show some courage and name yourself as you slander others.

Here comes Bob's constant refrain. Have you ever posted anything without including the same whine about anonymous posting?
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_rcrocket

Post by _rcrocket »

I just can't understand why I would have intentionally omitted a phrase from a quote which, had I inserted it, would have made my paper even stronger.

I just can't understand why you and Scratch (who hasn't even read my paper) are the only two human beings on the planet who accuse me of manipulating that letter.

I just can't understand that, when Bagley saw the letter, he agreed with me and not with your position.

Unless, I suppose, your real goal is simply to repeat anonymously a falsehood so often, and long enough, that my character will be impeached sufficiently.

rcrocket
_Rollo Tomasi
_Emeritus
Posts: 4085
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:27 pm

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

rcrocket wrote:Why continue to repeat a falsehood about review I wrote about Will Bagely's book?

The falsehood was your butchering the Bishop quote to discredit Lee's Mormonism Unveiled and anyone who dared rely on it (like Bagley or Juanita Brooks).

Bagley himself agreed that it would have wise to include the letter for the point I made about it.

I question if Bagley understood the extent of your slight-of-hand at the time you spoke/wrote with him. Of course, we don't have Bagley's take on any of this (just your rendition, which is questionable given your past embellishments of Quinn and sneaky editing of quotes).
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

rcrocket wrote:I just can't understand why I would have intentionally omitted a phrase from a quote which, had I inserted it, would have made my paper even stronger.

I just can't understand why you and Scratch (who hasn't even read my paper) are the only two human beings on the planet who accuse me of manipulating that letter.

I just can't understand that, when Bagley saw the letter, he agreed with me and not with your position.

Unless, I suppose, your real goal is simply to repeat anonymously a falsehood so often, and long enough, that my character will be impeached sufficiently.

rcrocket


OK....Everyone here knows I am NOT a fan of Bob's.

However, I have to agree with Bob on this one. If Bob wrote an article critiquing Bagley, and Bagley is fine with what was written, then what the hell are we arguing about here?

I have not read the article, so I'm probably speaking out of turn. Is there a link to it?

Maybe Rollo and Scratch are not understanding, Bob, how including the phrase would make your paper stronger as you suggest. It seems like they think that you manipulated it for your own gain.

Maybe you could explain how utilizing the quote in full context would have better supported your position.

That would help clarify things.
_Doctor Steuss
_Emeritus
Posts: 4597
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:57 pm

Post by _Doctor Steuss »

liz3564 wrote:[...]
I have not read the article, so I'm probably speaking out of turn. Is there a link to it?
[...]


Tah-Dah!

Ask and ye shall receive...
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_Rollo Tomasi
_Emeritus
Posts: 4085
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:27 pm

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

rcrocket wrote:I just can't understand why I would have intentionally omitted a phrase from a quote which, had I inserted it, would have made my paper even stronger.

It wouldn't make your paper stronger. With the partial quote as it is now, it allows you to discredit anyone who relies on Lee's Mormonism Unveiled because Bishop may have "added" any fact to spice up the story; on the other hand, the full quote limits what Bishop may "add" to the legal proceedings, which undercuts your implication that Bishop could have added anything to Lee's story.

I just can't understand why you and Scratch (who hasn't even read my paper) are the only two human beings on the planet who accuse me of manipulating that letter.

It took you so long to finally give us the whole letter, that perhaps others just didn't know about it (or remember it, as the case may be with Bagley).

I just can't understand that, when Bagley saw the letter, he agreed with me and not with your position.

Did you even discuss this issue with Bagley while he had a copy of the complete letter in front of him?

Unless, I suppose, your real goal is simply to repeat anonymously a falsehood so often, and long enough, that my character will be impeached sufficiently.

Not at all. And it's not a falsehood -- I'm simply reading the plain English and telling you I think your ellipses completely change what Bishop was saying to Lee.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_Rollo Tomasi
_Emeritus
Posts: 4085
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:27 pm

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

liz3564 wrote:However, I have to agree with Bob on this one. If Bob wrote an article critiquing Bagley, and Bagley is fine with what was written, then what the hell are we arguing about here?

I have not read the article, so I'm probably speaking out of turn.

I'm afraid you are. Go to page 213.

It seems like they think that you manipulated it for your own gain.

That's exactly what I think, given that Bob uses the partial quote to discredit Lee's Mormonism Unveiled in its entirety, because of Bishop's statement.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_rcrocket

Post by _rcrocket »

I wrote an article critiquing Bagley's book. One of the points I made was that Bagley shouldn't rely upon Lee's published confession in the San Francisco papers because Bishop altered it before it was published. Bagley's book concedes that the confession is untrustworthy, as did Brooks, but he and Brooks continued to rely upon it.

For instance, Lee says that he received orders of destruction from Apostle George Albert Smith ten days before the massacre was over. That would have put it at September 1 or 2. But, two diaries put Smith in Salt Lake on Aug. 30 and Sept. 1, and he was speaking in the SL Bowery the week thereafter, and then was at Fort Bridger in the middle of September.

So I question why Bagley would make such a big deal about Smith giving these orders of destruction to Lee when the evidence from several sources challenged it.

I am a scholar at the Huntington Library. So is Bagley. So was Brooks. In the massacre file is a letter from Lee's lawyer to Lee while Lee is in the penitentary.

The relevant portion says: "I do most certainly wish and expect the remainder of your manuscript, and have this a telegraphed to you to send all my express, which I am certain will have been done before you receive this letter. I will at once go to work preparing it for the press adding such facts connected with the trial and history of the case as will make the Book interesting and useful to the public."

When I used it in my article, I omitted "connected with the trial and history of the case" and replaced them with elipses. I did so just to save space; as I did with dozens of other quotes. The phrase is meaningless; "history of the case" means the massacre events and the aftermath of claimed coverup, so what I left out neither added to nor detracted from my point -- Bishop changed the confession.

I was a member of LDS-Bookshelf with Bagley. I needled him over his failure to include this letter in his book. I noted that he was a registered scholar at the Huntington. He finally said that perhaps he should have noted the letter; that he overlooked it; but, it didn't change his conclusions. But, in no event did he ever charge me with misquoting the letter.

Bagley has since been interviewed regarding my article; several times. He criticizes me for getting a date wrong in a typo (the day the Indians started their attack) but does not criticize me for this.

So, that is it in a nutshell. All Scratch and Rollo want to do is needle me with a complete falsehood. I don't have a problem with that, really, but every time they bring it up in irrelevant contexts (rcrocket: Gee, my wife had a baby today! rollo: What about that manipulation of sources, Bob), then my explanation will resume. Sorry.

rcrocket
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

rcrocket wrote:The phrase is meaningless; "history of the case" means the massacre events and the aftermath of claimed coverup, so what I left out neither added to nor detracted from my point -- Bishop changed the confession.


I'm reading this portion of the article, and what Bob is saying here makes sense to me. What am I missing?



rcrocket wrote:Gee, my wife had a baby today!


by the way...Did your wife really have a baby today? Congrats if she did.

;)
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

rcrocket wrote:All Scratch and Rollo want to do is needle me with a complete falsehood.

My experience with them suggests that all they ever want to do is to needle their chosen targets with falsehoods.

It's an extremely bizarre hobby.
Post Reply