The Nature of the Holy Spirit

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_Lucretia MacEvil
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Re: The Nature of the Holy Spirit

Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

moksha wrote:Another repost from Mormon philosopher Bill at Beliefnet:



Yikes! I want to be really snide and say, "this guy calls himself a philosopher?" but you know it's just not in me to be snide! :)

Anyway, it sounds like the same old same old to me. Fear-based control stuff.

You are what you eat. You are also what you do. But before you take action, you are what you think. Maybe that's why Jesus speaks of managing one's thoughts.


Or maybe he was really talking of managing one's thoughts for the sake of the thoughts, not consequent actions. Maybe we really are what we think, not what we do.

And maybe the Holy Spirit is nothing external at all but a part of ourselves.

The thing about the Mormon Holy Ghost that makes me wonder what I was ever thinking when I believed all this is that he/she/it flees from us just when we need him the most. Just up and flees! How backward is that?
_Lucretia MacEvil
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Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

The Nehor wrote:My evidence for the Holy Ghost claim is an experiment I attempted. Go pray to God and attempt to remove all prejudice from your mind and ask him to reveal himself to you.

If you are unwilling or unable to do that then there is nothing I can do for you.


Did you attempt to remove all bias from your mind as well? That may have influenced your perception.
_Lucretia MacEvil
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Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

Is Moksha going to come back and share his views? I hope?
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Lucretia MacEvil wrote:
The Nehor wrote:My evidence for the Holy Ghost claim is an experiment I attempted. Go pray to God and attempt to remove all prejudice from your mind and ask him to reveal himself to you.

If you are unwilling or unable to do that then there is nothing I can do for you.


Did you attempt to remove all bias from your mind as well? That may have influenced your perception.


At the time I tried it I was pretty sure I'd be an atheist or at least an agnostic by the end of the day. One thing I'm grateful for is that a large part of me wanted it to be false when I tried it. Removes the fear that it was self-induced out of desire.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

One religious group that fascinated me, from my former religious exploration, was The Teachings of the Inner Christ. They espoused that the Divine was not only external, permeating the Cosmos but also they spoke of the inner divinity that we all possessed. They thought it was important that we realize this divinity and appreciate it. It links us to all about us. This to me always seemed essentially true in understanding the Holy Spirit. It is there within us and as a part of all.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

I'm trying to understand what is meant by, "The NATURE of the holy sprit"... Qualities? Temperment? And "holy" is a rather vague, subjective and non-discriptive term as well??

Are we to think/believe that the "holy spirit" only is manifest in, or manifests itself to, religious types? If so, not really very holistic... Warm regards, Roger
_JAK
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Nehor Fails Accountability

Post by _JAK »

The Nehor wrote:My evidence for the Holy Ghost claim is an experiment I attempted. Go pray to God and attempt to remove all prejudice from your mind and ask him to reveal himself to you.

If you are unwilling or unable to do that then there is nothing I can do for you.


The claim “Holy Spirit” is prejudicial. It comes out of religious mythology entirely prejudicial. Likewise, the claim God was invented to perpetuate religious doctrine. Evidence supports the emergence and modification of God inventions man constructed.

Hence, we must disregard ancient or present claims and ask without prejudice for the compelling evidence which can be objectively presented for the claims inherent in your language.

By removing all prejudice from one’s thinking, one must ask those who make claims for gods (much earlier in human history) and those who make claims for God (current religious mythologies) to present that compelling evidence for all to see clearly.

Valid “experiment” should be observed by all in objective light. Personal, emotional introspection following religious indoctrination is not prejudice free. The opposite is the case. So as we eliminate prejudice, we require clear, concise, objective information which can be observed and tested.

For example, we can test gravity and do. We can test it alone or collectively and find reliable, clear results. This “experiment” is transparent and open to non pre-judgment.

You make the claims here for both “God” and for “Holy Spirit”. In making those claims it is you who have the burden of proof and the responsibility for presentation of free from prejudice evidence.

Private, personal “experiment” is irrelevant and pointless. You can conjure up anything to which your environment has exposed you. The challenge is for you to present compelling, transparent, and clear evidence for claims you make.

Absent that clear evidence, you fail credibility. Your imperative is irrelevant.

Nehor stated:
Go pray to God and attempt to remove all prejudice from your mind and ask him to reveal himself to you.


Your statement assumes the reliability of your claim “God”. Yet you have presented nothing to support the claim. Your personal, emotional experience is entirely irrelevant.

How would you respond if I were to suggest that you go and pray to the Tooth Fairy and attempt to remove all prejudice from your mind and ask him to reveal himself to you?

What would you say? Just substitute Tooth Fairy in your command.

What you should do is require evidence for the implicit claim. The implicit claim is that “Tooth Fairy” is or exists.

So you ought to require of me compelling evidence for the claim: “Tooth Fairy.”

I suspect you would if your post here is honest. Or, you might say: I do not accept your (my) claim of "Tooth Fairy". And, you might say: What is your evidence there IS a “Tooth Fairy”? The burden of proof would be mine to present compelling, transparent evidence for my claim “Tooth Fairy.”

Of course, I do not claim that for which there is no compelling transparent evidence. But, you do.

The burden of proof lies with you to support your claims.

Your previous claim that “Holy Spirit” is male is as spurious as your claim of “Holy Spirit.” Why is sex relevant, or how is it relevant to your other claim?

Again, piling one claim on top of another in no way reinforces the first claim. It’s a fatal flaw.

Nehor stated:
My evidence for the Holy Ghost claim is an experiment I attempted. Go pray to God and attempt to remove all prejudice from your mind and ask him to reveal himself to you.

If you are unwilling or unable to do that then there is nothing I can do for you.


If you, Nehor, are unwilling or unable to present a clear, transparent case for your claims, those claims should be disregarded.

JAK
_The Nehor
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Re: Nehor Fails Accountability

Post by _The Nehor »

JAK wrote:If you, Nehor, are unwilling or unable to present a clear, transparent case for your claims, those claims should be disregarded.

JAK


As knowledge has increased exponentially any attempt to make a claim for the best method to establish claims should be treated with the greatest skepticism.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

Jak, you either believe or you don't believe. To a nonbeliever, religion does seem like a fairy tale but to a believer it can be a source of comfort and strength.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_JAK
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Re: Nehor Fails Accountability

Post by _JAK »

The Nehor wrote:
JAK wrote:If you, Nehor, are unwilling or unable to present a clear, transparent case for your claims, those claims should be disregarded.

JAK


As knowledge has increased exponentially any attempt to make a claim for the best method to establish claims should be treated with the greatest skepticism.


Irrelevant to the challenge for you. For you, the challenge is to establish the assertions implicit or stated in your rhetoric. “Best method” is a non-issue as your assertions have been addressed. You present no evidence for your claims. That you believe them is irrelevant. What is paramount is evidence -- clear, transparent, open to scrutiny of examination evidence for those claims.

The cloak of ignorance or ambiguity “as knowledge has increased exponentially” has not and does not advance that knowledge. Further, “knowledge” is continuously evaluated, tested, and held to increasingly higher standards of transparency, honesty, and reliability.

You offer no refutation or analysis.

JAK
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