The Arrogance of Knowing "The Church is True"

[_wenglund]

I am embarrassed by the arrogant beliefs I held as a Mormon. They were arrogant, though at the time I didn't realize it. I believe now, if there is a God, that He wouldn't think one group of people more special than another. I don't for a minute think that there are any "chosen" by God. Any belief, Mormon or other, that feels they are chosen, particularly loved by God over others, that they have a certain knowledge and absolute truth or are in any other way set apart by God is arrogant, in my opinion.

I don't think I'm special any more. God, if he exists, loves me the same as everyone else, or ignores me like he does everyone else. He doesn't give me special revelation that is withheld from others. I don't assume that people who don't think like me are going to hell or a lower kingdom. I don't think I have "the truth". I have hopes and wishes and they are no longer that everyone will agree with my beliefs like I used to hope as a Mormon. I believe I know much less than I used to and to me, that is a good thing. KA

From my experience, people who are actually impartial and open-minded and accepting of other peoples beliefs as you intimate you now are, tend not to take frequent occasion to denegrate and take swipes at other faiths (include those they once belonged to). Certainly, they aren't motivated to affixing pejoritive labels to whole groups of people and the beliefs they may espouse.

Not that it is important to me, but perhaps for your own benefit, have you considered the possibility (or probability) that your current beliefs about Mormonism are, themselves, arrogant (if not far more so than how you view your former faith), but you don't realize it at this time?

More importantly, I wish you would give some consideration to the question I posed regarding your purpose in labeling LDS and LDS beliefs as "arrogant".

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

When Mormons are told God speaks through their prophets, nothing a current prophet says can possibly be wrong.

This is a gross mischaracterization of LDS belief. We are not inerrantists. Not only do we accept the possibility that prophets can say things that are wrong, but our scriptures even suggest the possibility, point out not a few instance where that has occured, and suggest means for dealing with it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_marg]

This is a gross mischaracterization of LDS belief. We are not inerrantists. Not only do we accept the possibility that prophets can say things that are wrong, but our scriptures even suggest the possibility, point out not a few instance where that has occured, and suggest means for dealing with it.

By what means do you determine that a current prophet might be wrong, that a previous prophet might be wrong? (I won't be back to this until tomorrow)

[_barrelomonkeys]

I very may well be shooting the messenger although it's the message I have an issue with. The message, as I read it, is that those that hold a truth are arrogant, snobs, and are incapable of actually knowing what they believe they know. Now this may all very well be true! I just take issue with how it is delivered and still am not comfortable calling people arrogant for their thought that they hold a truth.

Ok well in this instance, given the context provided by KA I use the word differently. The problem is not claiming a truth, or being snobbish or incapable of thinking well. Rather it is not allowing by virtue of one's attitude for any possibility that one could be wrong. There is absolutely nothing that can overturn or be superior to that belief. And I don't mean that one must be open to all ideas and accept them. Or one can not be certain about something. But if the attitude or methodology that one employs does not allow for the possibility of being wrong, then it will always be superior or right and all other counter opinions wrong or inferior irrespective of reasoning and evidence to the contrary.

I just don't usually associate those that have a strong belief in their religious convictions as being necessarily arrogant. I view people that are arrogant as those that act on their beliefs in a condescending manner to other people. I have "met" via the internet many LDS that are very certain in their beliefs. There are many people on MAD that are premiere apologetics that were humble and extremely kind to me. No one was radical and hateful or told me I was wrong or was demeaning to me in the least. I almost always associate arrogance with the way someone acts toward others. Perhaps KA and I (apparently a few other people as well) are using different definitions of this word.

Yes I am viewing it differently than you, in the context which KA presented the word. An atheist can be arrogant in the context I'm appreciating it, if they refuse consciously or unconciously to look at evidence or reasoning counter to their beliefs. And it is irrespective of how nice a person they are.

I have beliefs that I consider quite true. How I treat others that have differing beliefs than mine would decide if I were arrogant or not imho.

Do you hold those beliefs with an attitude that doesn't allow for the possibility of reasoning or evidence which might contradict those beliefs? If you hold those beliefs because an authority tells you to and you accept their word, essentially that authority does the thinking for you. If you do not allow for the possibility that the authority could be wrong then those claims which you accept, will always in your mind be superior to others on similar matters or which overlap that subject.

When Mormons are told God speaks through their prophets, nothing a current prophet says can possibly be wrong.

Hi Marg. While I appreciate the wipe on, wipe off moments I'm having with you I'm not adopting someone else's definition of arrogance. I not only have my own definition but even if I adopt the one you supplied I'd still not label LDS as arrogant.

I think to know someone else is arrogant you must know that the person believes they are superior than you. I can't imagine how I could ever possibly know that most LDS believe they are superior to me. Although most probable scenario is that they do believe they are superior to me. I'd wager most people I meet in life believe they're superior to me and yet I don't label them arrogant. It's just not something I do and I won't be doing it in the future.

Perhaps I'm extremely short sighted and have my own issues with reasoning because I try to avoid labels at all costs. It must be my line of work. :)

[_The Nehor]

I am embarrassed by the arrogant beliefs I held as a Mormon. They were arrogant, though at the time I didn't realize it. I believe now, if there is a God, that He wouldn't think one group of people more special than another. I don't for a minute think that there are any "chosen" by God. Any belief, Mormon or other, that feels they are chosen, particularly loved by God over others, that they have a certain knowledge and absolute truth or are in any other way set apart by God is arrogant, in my opinion.

I don't think I'm special any more. God, if he exists, loves me the same as everyone else, or ignores me like he does everyone else. He doesn't give me special revelation that is withheld from others. I don't assume that people who don't think like me are going to hell or a lower kingdom. I don't think I have "the truth". I have hopes and wishes and they are no longer that everyone will agree with my beliefs like I used to hope as a Mormon. I believe I know much less than I used to and to me, that is a good thing.

KA

All this proves is that YOU were arrogant then.

[_Polygamy Porter]

I am embarrassed by the arrogant beliefs I held as a Mormon. They were arrogant, though at the time I didn't realize it. I believe now, if there is a God, that He wouldn't think one group of people more special than another. I don't for a minute think that there are any "chosen" by God. Any belief, Mormon or other, that feels they are chosen, particularly loved by God over others, that they have a certain knowledge and absolute truth or are in any other way set apart by God is arrogant, in my opinion.

I don't think I'm special any more. God, if he exists, loves me the same as everyone else, or ignores me like he does everyone else. He doesn't give me special revelation that is withheld from others. I don't assume that people who don't think like me are going to hell or a lower kingdom. I don't think I have "the truth". I have hopes and wishes and they are no longer that everyone will agree with my beliefs like I used to hope as a Mormon. I believe I know much less than I used to and to me, that is a good thing.

KA

All this proves is that YOU were arrogant then.

Nehor, Jesus told the Mormons to be arrogant.

They are all abominations, remember?

How often do you hear the disgusting rote line in church about a nonmember that a member knows, "If the only knew what we know, if they only would open their hearts to what we have..."

Spiritual elitism is rampant in the LDS membership.

[_The Nehor]

All this proves is that YOU were arrogant then.

Nehor, Jesus told the Mormons to be arrogant.

They are all abominations, remember?

How often do you hear the disgusting rote line in church about a nonmember that a member knows, "If the only knew what we know, if they only would open their hearts to what we have..."

Spiritual elitism is rampant in the LDS membership.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure he said the creeds were abominations.....not people. I don't get how you can accuse the LDS Gospel of promoting arrogance when the Book of Mormon teaches equality before God and spends much of it's time telling the 'chosen' people that they suck and that their fate on the last day will be worse than everyone else's. The Book of Mormon beats down those who believe in it and tells them that unless they start doing the things they're told they're WORSE off than everyone else. The D&C lays out the Church's FAILURE to do what it was supposed to. President Benson taught that the Church was still under the condemnation in the D&C for not following the Book of Mormon and we still haven't built Zion.

If LDS people are arrogant it's in SPITE of all they've been taught. Either that or they're not reading their scriptures like they've been told to.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

"The Nehor: I'm pretty sure he said the creeds were abominations.....not people. I don't get how you can accuse the LDS Gospel of promoting arrogance when the Book of Mormon teaches equality before God and spends much of it's time telling the 'chosen' people that they suck and that their fate on the last day will be worse than everyone else's. The Book of Mormon beats down those who believe in it and tells them that unless they start doing the things they're told they're WORSE off than everyone else. The D&C lays out the Church's FAILURE to do what it was supposed to. President Benson taught that the Church was still under the condemnation in the D&C for not following the Book of Mormon and we still haven't built Zion.

If LDS people are arrogant it's in SPITE of all they've been taught. Either that or they're not reading their scriptures like they've been told to.

Uh-huh, Mormonism is a spiritual kindergarten, but it's still the One True spiritual kindergarten. :)

[_The Nehor]

Uh-huh, Mormonism is a spiritual kindergarten, but it's still the One True spiritual kindergarten. :)

Very true. Now if we could get a few people to learn their ABC's and start using them we'd be in better shape. One day.

[_Nephi]

Uh-huh, Mormonism is a spiritual kindergarten, but it's still the One True spiritual kindergarten. :)

This would be about like saying that science is a spiritual wasteland because most do not associate spirituality with science. Its rather condescending. No matter the information you use, whether it be Mormonism, or science, or whatever, the level of education associated with it is dependent upon how much time and effort one wishes to sink into the data. For instance, there are people in this world who have earned a doctorate purely on the subject of studying letters. Does this mean that they have a kindergarten level doctorate? Not hardly.

Mormonism is what you make of it (or what your spiritual path) can make of it. Same goes for any thing else in this world.