116 pages

[_Runtu]

Apples to oranges. You apparently saw through your delusions. Harris never did. He died claiming to know.

Bishop Koyle never recanted his testimony of the Relief Mine. Maybe I should dig out my stock certificate, after all.

[_Scottie]

Just look at all the New Age spirit energy crystal bullcrap. You've got people spending good coin on various crystals and whatnot under the assumption that these rocks will channel the earth's energy into their lives and whatnot.

Oooooo! Where can I get me one???

[_Scottie]

"Hey, how R U? LOL! Start polygamy again. I explain l8r. CYA, LOL!"

I seriously just LOL'd in my office!! Thanks Seth...

[_Blixa]

Apples to oranges. You apparently saw through your delusions. Harris never did. He died claiming to know.

Bishop Koyle never recanted his testimony of the Relief Mine. Maybe I should dig out my stock certificate, after all.

Wanna make a pilgrimage to the Koyle mine together? I've only seen it from the road (last October) but I'm fascinated by its Bauhaus-y architecture. That's why I'm currently in contact with the Prophet Onias/Robert Crossfield led polygamists. And the kicker? They contacted me!!!

I think Sept. 7th is currently my target date for touch down in SLC. Could be revised, but obviously before the 11th. Can't wait...

[_Scottie]

Apples to oranges. You apparently saw through your delusions. Harris never did. He died claiming to know.

Bishop Koyle never recanted his testimony of the Relief Mine. Maybe I should dig out my stock certificate, after all.

Wanna make a pilgrimage to the Koyle mine together? I've only seen it from the road (last October) but I'm fascinated by its Bauhaus-y architecture. That's why I'm currently in contact with the Prophet Onias/Robert Crossfield led polygamists. And the kicker? They contacted me!!!

I think Sept. 7th is currently my target date for touch down in SLC. Could be revised, but obviously before the 11th. Can't wait...

Is that the mine in Salem?

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Apples to oranges. You apparently saw through your delusions. Harris never did. He died claiming to know.

Bishop Koyle never recanted his testimony of the Relief Mine. Maybe I should dig out my stock certificate, after all.

Wanna make a pilgrimage to the Koyle mine together? I've only seen it from the road (last October) but I'm fascinated by its Bauhaus-y architecture. That's why I'm currently in contact with the Prophet Onias/Robert Crossfield led polygamists. And the kicker? They contacted me!!!

I think Sept. 7th is currently my target date for touch down in SLC. Could be revised, but obviously before the 11th. Can't wait...

Is that the mine in Salem?

Yup.

[_Calculus Crusader]

Incidentally, Bill Barton, the author of the piece that Calculus Crusader just quoted, is none other than the one who originally coined the phrase "magic rock."

Whatever happened to him, anyway?

I don't know, *****, but it would be nice if he popped up here.

[_why me]

Why Me,

You’re being inconsistent. First you proclaim that the very oddity of the hat trick was proof of its divine origin to you.

I would try to come up with a better solution to ensure the success of my written work. No, the hat technique sounds geniune to me. No one would invent such a crazy thing without it coming from god. Too much of a risk of having the book laughed at from the very start.

When I demonstrated that the “hat trick” was actually part of the folk magic practices of Joseph Smith’ time period, you change your mind and say:

As for hat trick, well...the lord uses the knowledge for that time period. Hence, the hat. Next point?

Are you now saying that the “hat trick” was inspired of God in all those practioners of folk magic? I ask because Joseph Smith clearly didn’t make this up, he borrowed this – and many of his other practices – from the folk magic of the time period.

So were all those folks looking at a rock in a hat inspired of God and really finding buried treasure with the trick?

Martin Harris being a human being lived life the way it was lived in his day. However, Martin remained faithful to his testimony and conviction about the Book of Mormon. The people on this board who were once members and who are now critics prove my point. No one who believes that the LDS church is a fraud has stayed the course. Why would Martin be an exception to all of you? We humans are very predictable. Martin believed. Hence, Martin stayed the course.

Oh, who cares. We’ve already demonstrated Martin had the tendency to jump around from religion to religion, all the while proclaiming great faith in each. In addition to his obvious gullibility, the fact that people believe crazy things to the day they die is not evidence of the validity of the crazy thing. Do you really think Allah wanted Muslim terrorists to kill people by plowing planes into a building? No? Why aren’t you considering the strength of the terrorists’ convictions as evidence of the validity of their belief?

What makes the emphasis on the witnesses even odder is how fast Joseph was to call their characters into question when they left the church.

Joseph Smith said Dec 16, 1838, "Such characters as McLellin, John Witmer, David Witmer, Oliver Cowdry, and Martin Harris are too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them." History of the Church, Vol 3, p232

http://www.Bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

I took what was said about a rock in a hat being somewhat common at its face value. However, I would find the hat trick very faith promoting because it sounds like a tremendous feat to accomplish a story by looking into a hat, especially a story like the Book of Mormon. Of course, Dan Vogel would disagree by assigning superhuman abilities to Joseph Smith and automatic writing. But as far as I understand, there were many ways to do the translation and not just the hat trick was used.

And so, the hat trick can be very faith promoting because of its basic nature of translation. We also need to remember that the hat translation was mentioned by David Whitmer, I believe, and is mentioned on the Neal Maxwell Insititute website.

[_why me]

If Martin Harris were alive today, he probably would have lost all of his money to a Nigerian advance fee scam.

I doubt it. He was quite a business man. I think that it would take a strong personal testimony for Martin to do any sacrificing of money. Martin had his visions and testimony. And that made all the difference to the annoyance of his wife.

[_why me]

Why Me,


Oh, who cares. We’ve already demonstrated Martin had the tendency to jump around from religion to religion, all the while proclaiming great faith in each. In addition to his obvious gullibility, the fact that people believe crazy things to the day they die is not evidence of the validity of the crazy thing. Do you really think Allah wanted Muslim terrorists to kill people by plowing planes into a building? No? Why aren’t you considering the strength of the terrorists’ convictions as evidence of the validity of their belief?

What makes the emphasis on the witnesses even odder is how fast Joseph was to call their characters into question when they left the church.

Joseph Smith said Dec 16, 1838, "Such characters as McLellin, John Witmer, David Witmer, Oliver Cowdry, and Martin Harris are too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them." History of the Church, Vol 3, p232

http://www.Bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

You miss the fact that he claimed to see a vision along with the other witnesses. He had to prove himself worthy and he did so in order to see his own vision. And this makes all the difference. Your comparisions in your above comments are fallible and just a little sensational. But this is what critics do: bring up crazy comparisons like George Bush did with Vietnam and Iraq.