The Confounding World of LDS Doctrinal Pronouncements...

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_JAK
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The Claim Game

Post by _JAK »

cksalmon wrote:
The Nehor wrote:He restored the truths by pointing the way. He knew because of revelation and experience. The understanding of God is not something you can learn in the academic sense. Sorry.


Well, one certainly can't come to know what LDS believe about God in any sort of academic sense. That's true. The process of discovery and analysis really has no bearing on a non-system of theological claims that is manifestly self-contradictory.

I'd at least wish to know from what system of belief I was apostatizing. But if the prophet himself doesn't really know the theological score, how are the members to know? They don't. And, arguably, they don't need to. Because the LDS faith is not about true, arguable propositions, but about something else...?

Good works? Feelings?

Truth claims don't really enter into the equation. Other than the most basic: Jesus was divine, etc.

Perhaps some LDS can live with the ambiguity of not knowing with any degree of certainty what their faith tradition actually believes about X, but I couldn't.

I don't mean any offense; but this issue just does kick the crap outta my analytical nature.

Best.

CKS


cksalmon stated: Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:39 pm
Truth claims don't really enter into the equation. Other than the most basic: Jesus was divine, etc.


That’s a truth claim, cksalmon. Once one begins with truth claims, one can claim anything one wishes. It’s the benefit of religious myth. And, religious mythologies don't merely claim one thing, they claim many things. They pile on assertion after assertion.

Your phrase “other than the most basic” is wide open for any of the more than 1,000 groups who claim they are Christian to insert any claims they wish.

Religious mythologies are unreliable.

JAK
_sailgirl7
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Post by _sailgirl7 »

wenglund wrote:
I don't think you correctly understood my point. I am not criticizing people for learning or for sitting at a teachers feet and being taught. Nothing I have said could reasonably be interpreted to suggest that I had. I am not looking at this in an either/or way. I agree that to everything there is a season: at time to sit and learn, and a time to act. I believe that Christ struck a healthy balance in how he presented the gospel of love and how he taught of God. From what I could tell, he didn't establish some elaborate and scholarly systematic theology, but rather he discriminately (as each situation made amenable) conveyed basic principles in stories/parables, particularly in the story of his life. He didn't get hung up on whether something was "official doctrine" or not. He didn't seem to me to worry about inconsistencies or paradoxical contradictions that some may suppose in what he said. He seemed more intent on bettering mankind and conveying general principles than on doctrinal exactitude, precision, and consistency. Again, if that was good enough for Christ, then it is good enough for me.

To understand my point better, it may be helpful to discover that there are various instructional methodologies and learning styles. In a broad sense, there are two main systems of thought: Western and Eastern. Western thought is more "left-brain" oriented, and geared towards linear, sequential, rational, analytical, objective, detail/micro-oriented, and rote epistemics; whereas, Eastern thought is more "right brain" oriented, and geared towards random, intuitive, holistic, synthesizing, subjective, global/macro-oriented, and experiential epistemics. The former is more intellectual based (the "head") and scientifically inclined, whereas the latter is more emotion-based (the "heart"), and artistically inclined.

Which instructional methodology do you think Christ favored? Which do most Christians favor today?

While I was raised to think more in Western ways, I have recently discovered (by attempting to learn how to draw and paint) the value in adopting some Eastern ways of thinking, and attempting to strike a balance between the "head" and the "heart" in how I grow in faith--believing that the head without the heart limits knowledge and understand just as does the heart without the head. As such, I find quibbling over what is "official doctrine" to be using way too much head at the unhealthy expense of the heart--actually, in modern psychology it may be termed as "anal-retentive". ;-)

But, that may just be me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Well, your point is your opinion based on your interpretation of the things you have read. But does that mean that you are correct or that you are right in your interpretation? To you perhaps, but it's not correct to me based on my interpretation.

I'm not sure what you mean by "He didn't get hung up on whether something was "official doctrine" or not." Why did he rebuke the Pharisee's for their false doctrine then? “… In vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” (Matt. 15:8–9.)
Your interpretation that "He seemed more intent on bettering mankind and conveying general principles than on doctrinal exactitude, precision, and consistency," I don't see supported in the text- in fact Jesus was very clear about teaching the "higher law" and doing away with the Law of Moses. He was very specific about his teachings especially in the Sermon on the Mount. He rebuked the Pharisee's and the Sadducee's who taught different doctrine.

We are told to keep the "doctrine pure". How are we to do that if we don't know what is "pure" to begin with. And if we aren't supposed to worry or put forth effort to find "pure" doctrine- how will we know when something is taught that it is pure or not? Pres. Hinckley said that "Small aberrations in doctrinal teaching can lead to large and evil falsehoods”. So are we being obsessive or "anal" if we try to figure out if small aberrations are being taught?
_JAK
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Disingenuous Claim to Knowledge

Post by _JAK »

The Nehor wrote:
cksalmon wrote:
The Nehor wrote:He restored the truths by pointing the way. He knew because of revelation and experience. The understanding of God is not something you can learn in the academic sense. Sorry.


Well, one certainly can't come to know what LDS believe about God in any sort of academic sense. That's true. The process of discovery and analysis really has no bearing on a non-system of theological claims that is manifestly self-contradictory.

I'd at least wish to know from what system of belief I was apostatizing. But if the prophet himself doesn't really know the theological score, how are the members to know? They don't. And, arguably, they don't need to. Because the LDS faith is not about true, arguable propositions, but about something else...?

Good works? Feelings?

Truth claims don't really enter into the equation. Other than the most basic: Jesus was divine, etc.

Perhaps some LDS can live with the ambiguity of not knowing with any degree of certainty what their faith tradition actually believes about X, but I couldn't.

I don't mean any offense; but this issue just does kick the crap outta my analytical nature.

Best.

CKS


I do know some things with many degrees of certainty. It helps to have an analytical nature. Gives you the drive to start figuring the whole thing out.


Nehor stated (Tue Aug. 28, 2007 12:35 pm):
I do know some things with many degrees of certainty. It helps to have an analytical nature. Gives you the drive to start figuring the whole thing out.


I’m skeptical. You are one indoctrinated in religious myth. As a result, your claim to know is suspect. I agree that “an analytical nature” is beneficial. However, as your posts clearly demonstrate, you are indoctrinated. You believe religious myth.

That makes you a poor candidate to be “analytical.” You exhibit few if any "analytical" skills.

You egotistical claim to “know some things” is most ambiguous. Exactly what do you claim to know. Claiming to know does not mean that you {know}.

Your dishonest responses to my posts strongly suggest that you are a pundit for religious myth. I have called you on your dishonest, misrepresentation of my posts. You are not truthful as your posts standing on this forum demonstrate, and as I have detailed in counter posts.

JAK
_JAK
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Good Questions

Post by _JAK »

sailgirl7 wrote:
wenglund wrote:
I don't think you correctly understood my point. I am not criticizing people for learning or for sitting at a teachers feet and being taught. Nothing I have said could reasonably be interpreted to suggest that I had. I am not looking at this in an either/or way. I agree that to everything there is a season: at time to sit and learn, and a time to act. I believe that Christ struck a healthy balance in how he presented the gospel of love and how he taught of God. From what I could tell, he didn't establish some elaborate and scholarly systematic theology, but rather he discriminately (as each situation made amenable) conveyed basic principles in stories/parables, particularly in the story of his life. He didn't get hung up on whether something was "official doctrine" or not. He didn't seem to me to worry about inconsistencies or paradoxical contradictions that some may suppose in what he said. He seemed more intent on bettering mankind and conveying general principles than on doctrinal exactitude, precision, and consistency. Again, if that was good enough for Christ, then it is good enough for me.

To understand my point better, it may be helpful to discover that there are various instructional methodologies and learning styles. In a broad sense, there are two main systems of thought: Western and Eastern. Western thought is more "left-brain" oriented, and geared towards linear, sequential, rational, analytical, objective, detail/micro-oriented, and rote epistemics; whereas, Eastern thought is more "right brain" oriented, and geared towards random, intuitive, holistic, synthesizing, subjective, global/macro-oriented, and experiential epistemics. The former is more intellectual based (the "head") and scientifically inclined, whereas the latter is more emotion-based (the "heart"), and artistically inclined.

Which instructional methodology do you think Christ favored? Which do most Christians favor today?

While I was raised to think more in Western ways, I have recently discovered (by attempting to learn how to draw and paint) the value in adopting some Eastern ways of thinking, and attempting to strike a balance between the "head" and the "heart" in how I grow in faith--believing that the head without the heart limits knowledge and understand just as does the heart without the head. As such, I find quibbling over what is "official doctrine" to be using way too much head at the unhealthy expense of the heart--actually, in modern psychology it may be termed as "anal-retentive". ;-)

But, that may just be me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Well, your point is your opinion based on your interpretation of the things you have read. But does that mean that you are correct or that you are right in your interpretation? To you perhaps, but it's not correct to me based on my interpretation.

I'm not sure what you mean by "He didn't get hung up on whether something was "official doctrine" or not." Why did he rebuke the Pharisee's for their false doctrine then? “… In vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” (Matt. 15:8–9.)
Your interpretation that "He seemed more intent on bettering mankind and conveying general principles than on doctrinal exactitude, precision, and consistency," I don't see supported in the text- in fact Jesus was very clear about teaching the "higher law" and doing away with the Law of Moses. He was very specific about his teachings especially in the Sermon on the Mount. He rebuked the Pharisee's and the Sadducee's who taught different doctrine.

We are told to keep the "doctrine pure". How are we to do that if we don't know what is "pure" to begin with. And if we aren't supposed to worry or put forth effort to find "pure" doctrine- how will we know when something is taught that it is pure or not? Pres. Hinckley said that "Small aberrations in doctrinal teaching can lead to large and evil falsehoods”. So are we being obsessive or "anal" if we try to figure out if small aberrations are being taught?



sailgirl7 stated Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:06 pm:

We are told to keep the "doctrine pure". How are we to do that if we don't know what is "pure" to begin with. And if we aren't supposed to worry or put forth effort to find "pure" doctrine- how will we know when something is taught that it is pure or not? Pres. Hinckley said that "Small aberrations in doctrinal teaching can lead to large and evil falsehoods”. So are we being obsessive or "anal" if we try to figure out if small aberrations are being taught?


It’s quite ambiguous. However, the last thing any organized religion wants from the paeans is serious, thoughtful, insightful questions regarding its doctrine.

Just believe. Do not question. That’s generally the posture of any religious organization. Such organizations do not welcome inquiry.

JAK
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

beastie wrote:
I don't see that as silly. I think reliably conveying information and better understanding the attributes of God are important. It is the extent to which some may expect infallability and perfection in reliability and conveyance that may be unrealistic if not "silly".


No one said anything about infallibility and perfection. We did say something about reliability. Do you really not know the difference between the two?


Yes. However, I'm not sure you do. Or, rather I would guess that for you the two are not as different as I see them.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

wenglund wrote:
beastie wrote:
I don't see that as silly. I think reliably conveying information and better understanding the attributes of God are important. It is the extent to which some may expect infallability and perfection in reliability and conveyance that may be unrealistic if not "silly".


No one said anything about infallibility and perfection. We did say something about reliability. Do you really not know the difference between the two?


Yes. However, I'm not sure you do. Or, rather I would guess that for you the two are not as different as I see them.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


I don't know. Even after correlation, it's still difficult to nail down certain doctrines in the church. I would have an easier time agreeing that church leaders have been reliable in pronouncing church doctrine (which I believe is scripturally one of the apostles' mandates) if they didn't contradict each other.

Doctrinally, it's easy to know what the church teaches now but that might change later, like it has before. We were always told that policies change, not doctrine. That is manifestly not true.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Yes. However, I'm not sure you do. Or, rather I would guess that for you the two are not as different as I see them.




Infallible and perfect would mean never saying something totally stupid like quaker men live on the moon.

Reliable means that the church would not dramatically change its teachings on certain very basic topics, such as the nature of God the Father, for example. Or the Holy Ghost. Is he a separate member of the godhead. or just the "mind of God"? Does God have a perfected body of flesh, or is he a personage of spirit?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

beastie wrote:
Yes. However, I'm not sure you do. Or, rather I would guess that for you the two are not as different as I see them.




Infallible and perfect would mean never saying something totally stupid like quaker men live on the moon.

Reliable means that the church would not dramatically change its teachings on certain very basic topics, such as the nature of God the Father, for example. Or the Holy Ghost. Is he a separate member of the godhead. or just the "mind of God"? Does God have a perfected body of flesh, or is he a personage of spirit?


Again, the problem is that the "doctrine" is whatever the living prophet says, so we can discard what the dead ones said, no matter what it is. So, one questions the reliability of a prophet whose doctrinal pronouncements are as likely to be discarded as not.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

sailgirl7 wrote:
wenglund wrote:
I don't think you correctly understood my point. I am not criticizing people for learning or for sitting at a teachers feet and being taught. Nothing I have said could reasonably be interpreted to suggest that I had. I am not looking at this in an either/or way. I agree that to everything there is a season: at time to sit and learn, and a time to act. I believe that Christ struck a healthy balance in how he presented the gospel of love and how he taught of God. From what I could tell, he didn't establish some elaborate and scholarly systematic theology, but rather he discriminately (as each situation made amenable) conveyed basic principles in stories/parables, particularly in the story of his life. He didn't get hung up on whether something was "official doctrine" or not. He didn't seem to me to worry about inconsistencies or paradoxical contradictions that some may suppose in what he said. He seemed more intent on bettering mankind and conveying general principles than on doctrinal exactitude, precision, and consistency. Again, if that was good enough for Christ, then it is good enough for me.

To understand my point better, it may be helpful to discover that there are various instructional methodologies and learning styles. In a broad sense, there are two main systems of thought: Western and Eastern. Western thought is more "left-brain" oriented, and geared towards linear, sequential, rational, analytical, objective, detail/micro-oriented, and rote epistemics; whereas, Eastern thought is more "right brain" oriented, and geared towards random, intuitive, holistic, synthesizing, subjective, global/macro-oriented, and experiential epistemics. The former is more intellectual based (the "head") and scientifically inclined, whereas the latter is more emotion-based (the "heart"), and artistically inclined.

Which instructional methodology do you think Christ favored? Which do most Christians favor today?

While I was raised to think more in Western ways, I have recently discovered (by attempting to learn how to draw and paint) the value in adopting some Eastern ways of thinking, and attempting to strike a balance between the "head" and the "heart" in how I grow in faith--believing that the head without the heart limits knowledge and understand just as does the heart without the head. As such, I find quibbling over what is "official doctrine" to be using way too much head at the unhealthy expense of the heart--actually, in modern psychology it may be termed as "anal-retentive". ;-)

But, that may just be me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Well, your point is your opinion based on your interpretation of the things you have read. But does that mean that you are correct or that you are right in your interpretation? To you perhaps, but it's not correct to me based on my interpretation.


I can respect that. I don't wish to argue about this, but rather merely to explain how I see things.

I'm not sure what you mean by "He didn't get hung up on whether something was "official doctrine" or not." Why did he rebuke the Pharisee's for their false doctrine then? “… In vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” (Matt. 15:8–9.)


As I see it, the major qualm that Christ had with the Scribes and Pharisees, beside their rank hypocrisy, was the overly burdensome priority they placed on the letter of the law (their notion of doctrinal purity?), in which things like the simple doctrine of the sabbath had been systematically analysized and exacted to the Nth degree, thereby inadvertantly making man for the sabbath rather than, as intended, the sabbath for man. So fixated were they on the law and the prophet (i.e. the doctrines) that they failed to recognize and know the Savior and Redeemer when he appeared among them--the very object for which the laws and prophets were a type and foreshadowing thereof.

Your interpretation that "He seemed more intent on bettering mankind and conveying general principles than on doctrinal exactitude, precision, and consistency," I don't see supported in the text- in fact Jesus was very clear about teaching the "higher law" and doing away with the Law of Moses. He was very specific about his teachings especially in the Sermon on the Mount. He rebuked the Pharisee's and the Sadducee's who taught different doctrine.


In terms of the sermon on the mount, do you think that Christ was speaking to "doctrinal purity" when he spoke of the salt loosing its savour, or the light being hid under a bushel? Was he speaking of "doctrinal purity" when he said that "except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, he shall in no case enter into the kindom of heaven"? Did the "higher law" that Christ taught on the Mount pertain to doctrines regarding the nature of God (systematic theology), or was it, as I have intimated, intended as a thought and behavioral guide the adherence to which will enable men to become more godly (perfect even as the Father), and thereby better know God by having experienced godliness and having been, to some degree, godly?

We are told to keep the "doctrine pure". How are we to do that if we don't know what is "pure" to begin with. And if we aren't supposed to worry or put forth effort to find "pure" doctrine- how will we know when something is taught that it is pure or not? Pres. Hinckley said that "Small aberrations in doctrinal teaching can lead to large and evil falsehoods”. So are we being obsessive or "anal" if we try to figure out if small aberrations are being taught?


Again, I think you misunderstand my point. I am not suggesting that doctrinal purity is not important. In fact, I have said that it is important in my last post. Where I may differ with some, is the extent to which that effort should be undertaken and at what cost. I see "doctrinal purity" as an ideal to be reasonably strived for, and not an absolute necessity. I see it as the end objective of a process involving imperfect and fallible people, and one that I expect to take a somewhat modest zigzag course (sufficiently modest to still be considered reliable, though not infallible or perfect) rather than a straight line. I also see it as an objective that may be of lesser priority (though still high) than changing the nature of mankind to becoming Christlike.

Again, if you see it differently, I am fine with that.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_The Nehor
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Re: Disingenuous Claim to Knowledge

Post by _The Nehor »

JAK wrote:I’m skeptical. You are one indoctrinated in religious myth. As a result, your claim to know is suspect. I agree that “an analytical nature” is beneficial. However, as your posts clearly demonstrate, you are indoctrinated. You believe religious myth.

That makes you a poor candidate to be “analytical.” You exhibit few if any "analytical" skills.

You egotistical claim to “know some things” is most ambiguous. Exactly what do you claim to know. Claiming to know does not mean that you {know}.

Your dishonest responses to my posts strongly suggest that you are a pundit for religious myth. I have called you on your dishonest, misrepresentation of my posts. You are not truthful as your posts standing on this forum demonstrate, and as I have detailed in counter posts.

JAK


I'm skeptical of you as well. You are indoctrinated by logical structures and seem to have no comprehension of how people interact and how people function. You also have not responded to my comments when I questioned your mental fitness. You did not deny my comparisons of your speech and logic structure to those with Asperger's and/or schizophrenia. Care to elucidate on that at all JAK?
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
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