The Roles of Logic and Science in Questions of Theology

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
Post Reply
_Calculus Crusader
_Emeritus
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:52 am

Post by _Calculus Crusader »

marg wrote:Gad, CC has completely lost this argument and it’s one of the reasons he’s focusing on personal attacks on JAK instead addressing JAK’s words with a reasoned argument.


Your judgment in these matters is far from sound. As I recall, you are also intoxicated with Hyam Maccoby.
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

(I lost access to my Milesius account, so I had to retrieve this one from the mothballs.)
_marg

Post by _marg »

Calculus Crusader wrote:
marg wrote:Gad, CC has completely lost this argument and it’s one of the reasons he’s focusing on personal attacks on JAK instead addressing JAK’s words with a reasoned argument.


Your judgment in these matters is far from sound. As I recall, you are also intoxicated with Hyam Maccoby.


You are continuuing to use ad hominem instead of sincere responses to what is said. I've asked quite a few questions which you've ignored. Give up CC, you don't have a good argument.
_Calculus Crusader
_Emeritus
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:52 am

Post by _Calculus Crusader »

In addition to the assumptions, we also have no definition of “positive.” Is there universal agreement on what is positive? There is not.


To quote Dr. Christopher Small:

Gödel suggested that a property could be said to be positive in a moral-aesthetic sense or in a sense of pure attribution. While many of us would differ over the details, a moral-aesthetic interpretation of Pos(F) is reasonably clear. The interpretation of Pos(F) as signifying "pure attribution" is far from obvious. Gödel interpreted the negation of "pure attribution" as "privation", i.e., a lacking in certain elements of being. For example, if F is the property of being present at the Eiffel tower on May 17 at 9:35 a.m. then we might be willing to accept that Pos(F) is true. This is not to say that being somewhere else at the same time is also not a form of pure attribution. If to be present at one location means to be absent from another location, then the participation in an aspect of being could not be said to be pure. So God could be said to be present at the Eiffel tower in the sense of pure attribution. Are there many other types of pure attribution? Probably, both sublime and ridiculous. One might argue that F="knows the capitals of all the states of the United States" is a form of pure attribution. Certainly, the property ~F seems to indicate a type of educational privation that most people possess, myself included. I would expect that God would get full marks in a quiz on this topic. Pure attribution may also require that a property has "fullness of being," although this idea is itself unclear to me.

Is there any relationship between positivity as a moral-aesthetic concept and positivity as pure attribution? I would like to think that the answer is yes. That which is moral or aesthetic typically enhances or deepens being. Alternatively, one could say that those things which are moral or aesthetic are things which affirm the creative over the destructive. A resolution of this issue is, fortunately, unnecessary to the argument which follows.

The only other indication that Gödel gave for his intentions here is to say that positivity is "independent of the accidental structure of the world".
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

(I lost access to my Milesius account, so I had to retrieve this one from the mothballs.)
_Calculus Crusader
_Emeritus
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:52 am

Post by _Calculus Crusader »

marg wrote:
Calculus Crusader wrote:
marg wrote:Gad, CC has completely lost this argument and it’s one of the reasons he’s focusing on personal attacks on JAK instead addressing JAK’s words with a reasoned argument.


Your judgment in these matters is far from sound. As I recall, you are also intoxicated with Hyam Maccoby.


You are continuuing to use ad hominem instead of sincere responses to what is said. I've asked quite a few questions which you've ignored. Give up CC, you don't have a good argument.


That is because you are not worth responding to in detail. Any axiomatic system can said to be "closed." That is not a legitimate criticism.
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

(I lost access to my Milesius account, so I had to retrieve this one from the mothballs.)
_JAK
_Emeritus
Posts: 1593
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:04 pm

Truth by Assertion Fails

Post by _JAK »

Calculus Crusader wrote:
marg wrote:Gad, CC has completely lost this argument and it’s one of the reasons he’s focusing on personal attacks on JAK instead addressing JAK’s words with a reasoned argument.


Your judgment in these matters is far from sound. As I recall, you are also intoxicated with Hyam Maccoby.


Ad hominem of marg (personal attack) is no refutation and entirely fails to address her points of analysis.

You have been unable to quote people with accuracy when their words are before you as has been the case with my posts to you. Your "recall" is flawed and personal attacks are irrelevant.

Your claim that marg is "intoxicated with Hyam Maccoby" is bogus.

JAK
_Calculus Crusader
_Emeritus
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:52 am

Post by _Calculus Crusader »

JAK, I simply do not care if you approve of Gödel's definitions or axioms. I do, and thus his argument provides a foundation for me to work from.
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

(I lost access to my Milesius account, so I had to retrieve this one from the mothballs.)
_Calculus Crusader
_Emeritus
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:52 am

Re: Truth by Assertion Fails

Post by _Calculus Crusader »

JAK wrote:
Calculus Crusader wrote:
marg wrote:Gad, CC has completely lost this argument and it’s one of the reasons he’s focusing on personal attacks on JAK instead addressing JAK’s words with a reasoned argument.


Your judgment in these matters is far from sound. As I recall, you are also intoxicated with Hyam Maccoby.


Ad hominem of marg (personal attack) is no refutation and entirely fails to address her points of analysis.

You have been unable to quote people with accuracy when their words are before you as has been the case with my posts to you. Your "recall" is flawed and personal attacks are irrelevant.

Your claim that marg is "intoxicated with Hyam Maccoby" is bogus.

JAK


My recollection is correct, as is my characterization of marg.
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

(I lost access to my Milesius account, so I had to retrieve this one from the mothballs.)
_Calculus Crusader
_Emeritus
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:52 am

Post by _Calculus Crusader »

As you, marg, correctly observed, we have a “closed reasoning system...”

God is assumed in both the definition and the axiom.

Yet CC attempted to say that Gödel proved God. Of course Gödel did nothing of the kind. Hence, in “model logics” we are confined by claims which ignore that which is not within the “closed __ system” as you astutely recognized.

I’m sure you recognize (as you imply) that reasoning is actually removed by constraints of a closed system.

In the listing CC provided, many questions which could/should be asked are precluded by definition and axiom making them off limits.

In “Definition 1: x is God-like iff x has as essential properties those and only those properties which are positive,” we have insurmountable begging of question.


Are you a congenital moron? Kurt Gödel does not have to consult you for his definition of God, nor do I, for that matter.
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

(I lost access to my Milesius account, so I had to retrieve this one from the mothballs.)
_marg

Post by _marg »

Calculus Crusader wrote:JAK, I simply do not care if you approve of Gödel's definitions or axioms. I do, and thus his argument provides a foundation for me to work from.


What foundation you use is up to you, but that doesn't mean your foundation logically proves an actual God's existence.
_JAK
_Emeritus
Posts: 1593
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:04 pm

Dual Fallacies

Post by _JAK »

Calculus Crusader wrote:
As you, marg, correctly observed, we have a “closed reasoning system...”

God is assumed in both the definition and the axiom.

Yet CC attempted to say that Gödel proved God. Of course Gödel did nothing of the kind. Hence, in “model logics” we are confined by claims which ignore that which is not within the “closed __ system” as you astutely recognized.

I’m sure you recognize (as you imply) that reasoning is actually removed by constraints of a closed system.

In the listing CC provided, many questions which could/should be asked are precluded by definition and axiom making them off limits.

In “Definition 1: x is God-like iff x has as essential properties those and only those properties which are positive,” we have insurmountable begging of question.


Are you a congenital moron? Kurt Gödel does not have to consult you for his definition of God, nor do I, for that matter.


More ad hominem and another straw man attack.

Calculus Crusader stated Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:21 pm:
Are you a congenital moron? Kurt Gödel does not have to consult you for his definition of God, nor do I, for that matter.


Gödel presents no evidence for his claimed God. He makes it up.

Fallacy: Straw Man

JAK
Post Reply