Christian Reformation...2007

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Nehor, i agree. Great aspiration! I think YOU could be one of them... Warm regards, Roger

[_paulhadik]

its more like a demolition

spong hates what Scripture reveals about God. So he ignores it and has come up with his own God. A God that is neither holy nor sovereign. The nice neighbor God with his own show on PBS. It has no foundation in any passage of Scripture save his own imaginations and appeals only to the itching ears of those who would like to ignore their own sinfulness.....woops, I said the s word.

[_Roger Morrison]

its more like a demolition

spong hates what Scripture reveals about God. So he ignores it and has come up with his own God. A God that is neither holy nor sovereign. The nice neighbor God with his own show on PBS. It has no foundation in any passage of Scripture save his own imaginations and appeals only to the itching ears of those who would like to ignore their own sinfulness.....woops, I said the s word.

An interesting opinion Paul. On what do you base your criticism, other than that Spong tends to be critical of ancient tradition. Even the Catholic church has changed many of its professings over its 2,000 year reign of Christendom. Has it not?

"Sinfulness"?? What to you ascribe to that category? Do you think humans can change their attitudes to improve their behaviour, to distance themselves from "evils & wickedness"? Do you believe individually (&/or collectively) we are locked into "sin" with no escape but by blood atonement/human sacrifice? Curious??? Warm regards, Roger

[_Roger Morrison]

Thanks Roger,

I've mentioned this several times in different threads. My pastor friend now calls himself a "follower of Christ". This description, I agree, transcends religeons. To an extent even non Christian. To be called a "Christian" has lost it's sacred meaning to him. It has become an abused and nebulous label that similarly resembles a bill that finally passes through congress.

One of my buddies is a born again Christian. He shared with me his evolution in Christ believing. He used to think all Mormons (and many others) went straight to hell. After meeting some that didn't fit that description, he began to realize that Christ believers are found in all institutionalized faiths as well as those that do not belong. They were followers of Christ inspite of their respective churches they belonged to. He is a close friend of my pastor friend.

I have a great deal of respect for these men and their families, as well as those they have introduced me to. Of all those that I have discussed my disaffection with, they are the most encouraging, non-judgemental, patient, peaceable and in many other ways Christ countenanced.

Just for fun, try to define "follower of Christ". There is just not a lot of fluff.


"A New Kind of Christian"
http://www.amazon.com/New-Kind-Christia ... 201&sr=8-1

The book looks interesting. Probably depicting a lot of common turmoil in minds when they seriously THINK about Judeo-Christianism and what is really on display in their writings: A truly unloving "God" who/that is whimsical, jealous, prejudiced, committed to ethnic-cleansing and arbitrary in "HIS"--according to the legend authored by the male gender--control of the Universe. This is concluded by any open-minded study of the Old Testament. Jesus, quite rightly presented a New "God" with only two commandments that are summarized with terms such as justice, caring, responsiveness to others sufferings and needs. One could say--i will--"Christ made a left-turn to get things right." :-)

This 'difference' is being picked up by folks, such as your BA Buddy. Most reasonably read folks, church attendees or not, readily see, and understand the necessity of plumbing Christianity from new check points.. IMSCO. Warm regards, Roger

(Edited for time-out to attend to family duties ;-)

[_paulhadik]

roger:

he is not critical of tradition, he is critical of Scripture. and this nonsense about men writing it all...so what can he learn about Christ's life from MAtthew, or MARK, or LUKE or JOHN..(unless they are early appearances of the Bronte sisters) and hey Christ is a man too...and WAIT so is SPONG!!!

and for all this womanly stuff, since he denies the virgin birth what does that say about Mary?

[_Roger Morrison]

roger:

he is not critical of tradition, he is critical of Scripture. and this nonsense about men writing it all...so what can he learn about Christ's life from MAtthew, or MARK, or LUKE or JOHN..(unless they are early appearances of the Bronte sisters) and hey Christ is a man too...and WAIT so is SPONG!!!

and for all this womanly stuff, since he denies the virgin birth what does that say about Mary?

That she was Joseph's wife and Jesus' mother. Is there something ignoble or unnatural about that? It certainly doesn't deny a man called Jesus died on a cross at the hands of fanatics who feared his Good News would dispell their power and free minds to think. "Know the truth..." Seems many still prefer myth and legend. I have difficulty understand why that seems to be.

Maybe you can answer that for me, please? Warm regards, Roger

[_paulhadik]

many of us see these "myths and legends" and revelation from God. Spong and others like him want an unthreatening Granpa Walton god who will never condemn anything we do but will chuck us on the jaw and wink

but on what can you base this God? You toss most scripture as it doesn't fit this dream, you have to toss much of what Christ said as he certainly didn't see himself as some teacher "freeing minds to think". Christ becomes a Willy Wonka sugar confection treat meeting our wishes for God

again, I ask on what do you base this? You can't pick and choose what scripture you accept simply because some tastes better than others

and you really believe the reason Christ was murdered because he was trying to free minds? you so horribly devalue the greatest example of God's love in all history

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Paul, i'm in bold in your post below:

many of us see these "myths and legends" and revelation from God. RM: Via who or what? Are they not the printed traditions and practices of man? Spong and others like him want an unthreatening Granpa Walton god who will never condemn anything we do but will chuck us on the jaw and wink RM: A couple of "cuteisms" that don't say much :-) The "God" that Spong and others have in mind, is a responsible consistant "God". One that cannot be bribed, cajoled or impressed with rituals, smoke and babble. Scientists depend on that consistancy. As do we all when stepping aboard an plane...

but on what can you base this God? You toss most scripture as it doesn't fit this dream, you have to toss much of what Christ said as he certainly didn't see himself as some teacher "freeing minds to think". Christ becomes a Willy Wonka sugar confection treat meeting our wishes for God RM: Another meaningless "cutesy" :-( Christ is said to have said, "Know the truth to be free..." (Jhn 8:32) He indeed was a teacher who gathered folks around him and taught the beatitudes on The Mount. You can find that in Mathew 5-8. An interesting read...

again, I ask on what do you base this? You can't pick and choose what scripture you accept simply because some tastes better than others RM: See the above. Jesus stated that we are to select the best fruit. Bitter fruit brings suffering and regrets to those who are not wise...

and you really believe the reason Christ was murdered because he was trying to free minds? you so horribly devalue the greatest example of God's love in all history RM: Think about it Paul: Recall his analogies re being imprisoned by sin. Being free by living according to what was described in ancient timed as "God's word"? Today we say, "by truth" according to the reveallings of the sciences... What greater "love" can be demonstrated than that? There is no end to what can be found by "...seeking, asking & knocking..."? That is the unconditional process by which humanity evolves. The evidence is all around us! How can one deny that reality??

Lots of good-stuff out there Paul... And you don't even need to be a believer, or a church attendee to enjoy it! It's free to the wise!! Warm regards, Roger

[_paulhadik]

then lets take a look at that sermon
(by the way, on what grounds do you accept those sayings and deny anything he said after his resurrection?)
in 5:28- he talks about sinning by thinking wicked thoughts about women...can't I free my mind to think what I want?
next couple verses he talks about the dangers of going to hell (or am I supposed to throw those portions out?)
how about the Lord's prayer in chapter 6 where he says we should pray that God's will be done (doesn't that mean I subordinate myself to His will???)
If we are to forgive those that do evil against us, doesn't that imply that we can do evil against others? And if evil is being done, than we must accept that evil is a fact, forgiveness is a necessity only from our fellow man but also from God (which is mentioned in that section)
why do I need forgiveness from God? Who is He that I should need His forgiveness?

later on in chapter 6 he mentions the possibility of "the whole body being in darkness" yikers...
in chapter 7 verse 11 he states that we collectively are "evil" was this just a poor choice of words in an otherwise uplifting address?
and dare we even attempt to address verses 13 on talking about how many will find the road to destruction and only a few find the road to life?
and why stop here (although Christ should have while WE were ahead) those stinging verses in 7:22-23 when people who had done good things stand before the Father in heaven and He has the audacity to state "Depart from me I NEVER knew you" what is spongs take on that or do we just ignore that part.

I know you get fed up with me but the God you choose to serve has no foundation except the imaginations of foolish men who like everyone have a simple choice. Accept God as He is and change ourselves to meet His standards, or change God into an image that is more pleasing and gratifying to ourselves.

[_Livingstone22]

From what I've read from Rev. Spong, it seems to me that he wants to promote a conception of Jesus and Christianity filled with sunshine, rainbows, and bunnies. He seems to think that people don't want to follow a God of killing, exclusivity, terror, hellfire and damnation--but rather they are drawn to a God of love, patience, forgivingness, empathy, hope, and beauty. This is why so many are leaving monotheistic western religions in light of the fanatical killing, offensive fighting, and discrimination that has been so prevalent lately in our world; they are leaving for atheism and other spiritual paths from the east.

Is Spong being beguiled by thinking that Jesus and His teachings are all about smiles, flowers, and puppies--love, goodness, and compassion?