God and a fraud?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_barrelomonkeys
_Emeritus
Posts: 3004
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:00 pm

Post by _barrelomonkeys »

Thus, the great Restoration is also a refutation of our increasingly doubting and secular society. Our society has its jaded cynicism, humdrum hedonism, and pleasure seeking, and it is swamped in situational ethics. No wonder some, unaware, fulfill Peter’s great prophecy by saying, in effect: “Where is the promise of [Christ’s] coming? … All things must continue as they are, and have continued as they are from the beginning of the creation” (Joseph Smith Translation, 2 Pet. 3:4).

People have lost much of the capacity to believe. No wonder today’s permissiveness and immorality resemble symptoms of an earlier time: “And thus [Korihor] did preach unto them, leading away the hearts of many, causing them to lift up their heads in their wickedness, yea, leading away many women, and also men, to commit whoredoms—telling them that when a man was dead, that was the end thereof” (Alma 30:18).

Without the acceptance of the Restoration, it will become increasingly as it was in ancient Israel when “every man did that which was right in his own eyes” (Judg. 17:6; Judg. 21:25). Already in our time, as prophesied, “every man walketh in his own way, and after … the likeness of the world” (D&C 1:16).


Unless I'm having severe reading comprehension issues I do not see anything in the above quote that describes a behavior. Saying something is hedonistic and not equating it to something does not create meaning for me. What meaning does it have for you other than that those nasty ole atheists are all probably hedonists?
_MishMagnet
_Emeritus
Posts: 288
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:04 pm

Post by _MishMagnet »

I've already been accused today, in real life, of having no morals because I wasn't born again Christian. I am a moral, ethical person. I am a faithful wife, loving mother a productive member of society. The Christian church, the Mormon church, has no claim to the only set of morals around! In fact I see unethical behavior in both and this is why I'm on the outside right now. I left the church over polygamy. I won't put my trust in a man who was a chronic adulterer. I will not put my trust in a God who commands us to be unethical. And yes, I find polygamy to be hugely unethical.

God did a huge disservice to the Mormon Church when he retrieved the plates. The plates weren't needed in the first place. We know that. They weren't around when Joseph was dictating. And then God took them. Had Joseph Smith been allowed to show them to everyone in town. Had Joseph Smith been able to take them to a scholar. If we had them now and they were indeed what he said they were - how much of the world would be LDS right this second? If Joseph Smith was an honorable man - how many of us would have stayed?

And I say all of the above hypothetically since I don't believe there ever were any plates.
Insert ironic quote from fellow board member here.
_barrelomonkeys
_Emeritus
Posts: 3004
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:00 pm

Post by _barrelomonkeys »

Jesus’ instructions concerning discipleship involve both substance and sequence: “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me” (Luke 9:23; emphasis added). Elsewhere, Moroni declared the need for us to deny ourselves “all ungodliness” (Moro. 10:32), thus including both large and small sins. While boulders surely block our way, loose gravel slows discipleship, too. Even a small stone can become a stumbling block.

King Benjamin and Paul both stressed the congenital weakness of the natural man who is turned away from God and who regards spiritual things as “foolishness” (see Mosiah 3:19; 1 Cor. 2:13–14; Col. 3:9). Thus, putting off the views and appetites of the natural man is such a large part of denying oneself, a process sometimes accompanied by scalding shame and the reflux of regret (see JST, Luke 14:28).

Even so, in today’s world, individual appetites, far from being denied, are actually celebrated! As one writer noted, this mantra has its own incessant “beat,” and it goes “Me … Me … Me … Me!” (Daivd Frum, Dead Right, New York: BasicBooks, 1994, p. 203, quoting Tom Wolfe, “The Me Decade and the Third Great Awakening,” in Purple Decades, New York: Farrar Straus Giroux, 1982, p. 293).

Yet sensory happiness is illusory happiness. Even legitimate pleasure is as transitory as the things which produce it, while joy is as lasting as the things which produce it!

Of all today’s malevolent “isms,” hedonism takes the greatest toll. It is naïve to say that hedonists merely march to the beat of a different drummer. So did the Gadarene swine!

A quarter of a century ago historian John Lukacs perceptively warned that sexual immorality was not merely a marginal development but, instead, was at the center of the moral crisis of our time (see John Lukacs, The Passing of the Modern Age, New York: Harper & Row, Publishers, 1970, p. 169). Some thought Lukacs was overstating it, but consider the subsequent and sobering tragedy of children having children, of unwed mothers, of children without parents, of hundreds of thousands of fatherless children, and of rampant spousal infidelity. These and related consequences threaten to abort society’s future even before the future arrives! Yet carnalists are unwilling to deny themselves, even though all of society suffers from an awful avalanche of consequences!

Consider this sobering forecast: “About 40 percent of U.S. children will go to sleep in homes in which their fathers do not live” (David Blankenhorn, “Life without Father,” USA Weekend, 26 Feb. 1995, pp. 6–7).

Some estimate this will rise to 60 percent. This same commentator has written, “Fatherlessness is the engine driving our most urgent social problems, from crime to adolescent pregnancy to domestic violence” (ibid., p. 7). Such outcomes, brothers and sisters, unfortunately, constitute America’s grossest national product, produced in the slums of the spirit created by spreading secularism!


In Proverbs, we read, “For the commandment is a lamp” (Prov. 6:23). Once darkened, a society loses its capacity to distinguish between right and wrong and the will to declare that some things are wrong per se. Without the lamp, our world finds itself desperately building temporary defenses, drawing new lines, forever falling back, unwilling to confront. A society which permits anything will eventually lose everything!

Therefore, recognized or not, the public has an enormous stake in private morality! Yet today there is so much hedonism and shouted justification with so little quiet shame. Bad deeds are viewed as nobody’s fault and everything as excusable on one basis or another.

Amid such inversions, no wonder victims are often neglected and the guilty sometimes glorified. Likewise, in place of real confessions there are fluid variations of “I hope I can forgive myself.” In contrast, the inquiring Apostles knew the direction in which they faced; all anxiously asked Jesus of the impending betrayal, “Lord, is it I?” (Matt. 26:22.)

Gross sins arise ominously and steadily out of the swamp of self-indulgence and self-pity. But the smaller sins breed there, too, like insects in the mud, including the coarsening of language. But why should we expect those who “mind the things of the flesh” to mind their tongues? (Rom. 8:5.)

For some, their god “is their belly,” as are other forms of anatomical allegiance! (Philip. 3:19.) A few hedonists actually glory in their shame, and there is even a “greediness” in their “uncleanness” (Eph. 4:18–19). Sadly, too, a few envy the wicked. Still others complain that the wicked seem to get away with it! (See Prov. 23:17; Mal. 3:14–15.)

Ironically, in all their eagerness to experience certain things, hedonists, become desensitized. People who wrongly celebrate their capacity to feel finally reach a point where they lose much of their capacity to feel! In the words of three different prophets, such individuals become “past feeling” (see 1 Ne. 17:45; Eph. 4:19; Moro. 9:20).

When people proceed “without principle,” erelong they will be “without civilization,” “without mercy,” and “past feeling” (see Moro. 9:11–20). Such individuals do not experience real joy, such as being quietly and deeply grateful to a generous God, or of helping to restore those who “droop in sin” (2 Ne. 4:28), or of gladly forgoing praise and recognition so that it might flow, instead, to parched souls.



You could have helped me out by not quoting anything other than the bolded parts. And like I said, it talked about the 'natural man', teen pregnancies and fatherless homes. So... this creates a hedonist? A pregnant teen? A home with a father absent? And a 'natural man'? And I have NO idea what a 'natural man' is really?
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

But...when it comes to the restoration story of the LDS church, I am of the opinion that we're moving into territory and that it is a different beast/story. It's much bigger than a tele-evangelist, or a moonie, or a scientology nut, or a ...well, you name it. If you're not able to see that, I'm not sure that we really have anywhere to go. We'd have to agree to disagree I guess.


And just how do you propose that Mormonism is THAT much bigger than "a" televangelist (I didn't ask why God hasn't struck down A televangelist - the whole bunch of them, if Mormonism is true, are fraudulent), a moonie, or a scientology "Nut" (and how are scientologists nuts?).

Just how is Mormonism so constitutionally different than all the other myriad frauds perpetrated by human beings in the NAME OF Jesus??

If Mormonism is true, one of the biggest frauds perpetrated by human beings in the name of Jesus Christ is the Catholic church. And they are a tad bigger than Mormonism, by any measure.

This is a very weak argument on your part, mg. I suggest you rethink it.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_gramps
_Emeritus
Posts: 2485
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:43 pm

Post by _gramps »

mentalgymnast wrote:
gramps wrote:Mentalgymnast wrote:

Rejection of the Book of Mormon Mormon results in people such as Keene subscribing to mind altering substances and non-belief in God as being "the way". Rejection results in loss of faith in the truth claims of the LDS church. Rejection often results in atheistic/agnostic tendencies. Rejection may result in a greater tendency towards alternate lifestyles, including hedonistic/immoral behaviors.

As I try to take a global/wider look at things, and again under the assumption that there is a God, I have a difficult time conceptualizing of a God that would let something OF THIS MAGNITUDE exist/proliferate in the name of his son. Of course, the underlying assumption being made here is that Jesus was who he said he was. And in my mind, at this point in my life, I cannot see the long range hope for humanity as being anything more/less than hopeless, in an eternal sense, if a loving God didn't foreordain someway for fallen man to be redeemed from what appears to be a tremendous fall from grace.


You are being serious, I take it. Of course, some of us here have no assumption that there is a God. In fact, most of the world has no assumption that God exists as you believe him to exist. So, you are making a pretty big assumption, my friend.

You are not taking a global/wider look at things. Your view is extremely myopic in nature. And typical of a lot of Mormons. You aren't saying anything that we haven't heard before from you guys.

Leaving the faith leads to using mind-altering substances.

Leaving the faith leads to our developing atheistic/agnostic tendencies. LOL You are cracking me up. You know you are an atheist as well, unless you are telling me you believe in all the other myriad of gods out there in the world. Duh!

Leaving the faith leads us to hedonism, too! Oh my!

And you are stuck believing in the gold Bible and using the gold Bible to tell us what a "heathen" is? You crack me up.

Tremendous fall from grace? So, you can't wrap your head around the idea of evolution, either? Really pathetic, actually.

Wake up, literally, and smell the coffee, brother. Oh wait! You might become a heathen. That's right.

Because the gold Bible told you so. Oh and a old suit from the world conquest building in Salt Lake City, told you so, too. Pretty worldly view. Not!

LMAO.


If the Book of Mormon is true, you're blowing a lot of hot air. by the way, I can wrap my mind around the idea of evolution. Why not? Why do you use words such as "pathetic"? Does it strengthen your cause?

Regards,
MG


A big "if." I will take my chances, mentalgymnast.
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland
_mentalgymnast

Post by _mentalgymnast »

barrelomonkeys wrote:Mental gymnast, What behaviors are hedonistic?


Waiting for your input first.

barrelomonkeys wrote:Mental gymnast, What do you believe are agnostic/atheist tendencies?


Inclinations towards questioning the existence of God.

barrelomonkeys wrote:Mental gymnast, for what purpose did you bring up that people have assumptions of God?


We are hardwired for belief. Or at least to experience what would be perceived to be religious/spiritual phenomena. Assumptions then become a secondary spinoff/result of having been prewired for thinking about "what God is"...or isn't.

See:
http://www.amazon.com/God-Part-Brain-Ma ... 0966036700

read the reviews.

see: http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/20 ... rain.shtml

To disbelieve in religion/god we have to overide or disconnect the circuitry within the brain.

Regards,
MG
Last edited by _mentalgymnast on Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
_mentalgymnast

Post by _mentalgymnast »

gramps wrote:
I will take my chances, mentalgymnast.


Fair enough.

Regards,
MG
_barrelomonkeys
_Emeritus
Posts: 3004
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:00 pm

Post by _barrelomonkeys »

MishMagnet wrote:I've already been accused today, in real life, of having no morals because I wasn't born again Christian. I am a moral, ethical person. I am a faithful wife, loving mother a productive member of society. The Christian church, the Mormon church, has no claim to the only set of morals around! In fact I see unethical behavior in both and this is why I'm on the outside right now. I left the church over polygamy. I won't put my trust in a man who was a chronic adulterer. I will not put my trust in a God who commands us to be unethical. And yes, I find polygamy to be hugely unethical.

God did a huge disservice to the Mormon Church when he retrieved the plates. The plates weren't needed in the first place. We know that. They weren't around when Joseph was dictating. And then God took them. Had Joseph Smith been allowed to show them to everyone in town. Had Joseph Smith been able to take them to a scholar. If we had them now and they were indeed what he said they were - how much of the world would be LDS right this second? If Joseph Smith was an honorable man - how many of us would have stayed?

And I say all of the above hypothetically since I don't believe there ever were any plates.


Mish Magnet, I'm often accused of being a poor human being for my lack of faith. It frustrates me! I try so very hard to be considerate to my fellow humans. I have strived long and hard to recognize the needs of others and try to accomplish my own goals without violating anyone else. I become so saddened when people assume I'm a 'bad' person because I don't have God in my life.

I just frankly don't understand it! I'm pretty sure if there is a God he would be pleased with my attempts. I fall short often. Yet, I'm human and if He did indeed create me then He created me as I am. That I have flaws and continually try to improve myself is surely a testament to how I recognize that how I live my life and interact with others is the purpose of my life. I take great pains to ensure that I do all I can to live a life where I can be happy and not hurt others. I'm sick of being told I'm a bad person!
_MishMagnet
_Emeritus
Posts: 288
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:04 pm

Post by _MishMagnet »

Here's my set of morals:

Good : brings happiness to the world
Neutral : brings neither happiness nor harm
Bad : brings harm

I am no hedonist. Not even a little bit. And yet I am an agnostic.
Insert ironic quote from fellow board member here.
_MishMagnet
_Emeritus
Posts: 288
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:04 pm

Post by _MishMagnet »

Also, if there is a God and God will hear me out I will be more than happy to tell God exactly how I came to doubt and eventually not believe. I find it to be a very logical conclusion. Sadly I have yet to find a God this loving or understanding.

God, I after crying unto you for years and years I eventually started considering alternatives. Had you answered me even a little bit I wouldn't be in this place right now.
Insert ironic quote from fellow board member here.
Post Reply