The KEPA Manuscripts as Oral Dictation Transcripts

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_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

I’m not sure why you are asking me for “accompanying photographic evidence” when you obviously have your own photos.


Probably because you are the one making an argument based on them, and he doesn't see what you think you see. No offense intended Will, but you have an established history of seeing things that simply aren't there. You can't expect us to overlook this.

And at present, as you know, I am not permitted to post any extracts of my images of the KEP.


Pretty convenient, eh?

Will, consider the fact that you have accused Brent in the past of hiding things when he posts photos that supports his particular arguments. You came right out with it and said you didn't trust him.

And let's also consider that you have been going off and on for about a year now, alluding to photographic evidence in support of your apologetic of the week, without any hard evidence other than your say-so and the promise that the apologists at BYU agree with you. That doesn't really mean anything to us. If anything, saying John Gee and Brian Hauglid agree with you, damages your credibility.

At least Brent supports his arguments with the relevant photographic evidence.

You have been coming up with these kinds of apologetic theories for about a year now, and we still haven't seen any photos from you. Did Brian and John actually say you could use the photos for yourself, but that you could never share them in a critical forum? What does this say about their confidence in these arguments?

At least Brent is willing to hold off making arguments he is not willing to support with photos, yet. I guess he has to save something for his book, after all.

But I have given what I consider to be a satisfactory description of the evidence. In my judgment, the evidence strongly supports the conclusion.


Nobody here doubts your confidence in your own theories, Will - however short- lived they might be. But in this case you're still ignoring the Parrish manuscript. Why is there no evidence for an "emendation" there? You seem to get tunnel vision whenever you come across a speckle of something you think can be turned into a new apologetic. All the contrary evidence gets thrown to the side. I mean you still haven't dealt with the various half-dozen points that strongly suggest a dictated transcription, yet you say you're confident enough to leap to the illicit conclusion that this suggests a copying effort.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_William Schryver
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Post by _William Schryver »

KG:

Did Brian and John actually say you could use the photos for yourself, but that you could never share them in a critical forum?

My restrictions on use of the KEP images originate with the Church Archives.

Nobody here doubts your confidence in your own theories, Will - however short-lived they might be. But in this case you're still ignoring the Parrish manuscript. Why is there no evidence for an "emendation" there?

You seem to be forgetting that the dictation theory depends on both manuscripts being produced simultaneously. Therefore, if one of the documents shows evidence of being a copy, then the theory must be revised. Nonetheless, I will yet have questions on how Parrish deals with Abr. 1:12 – Ms. #3 also has peculiarities at that verse.

I mean you still haven't dealt with the various half-dozen points that strongly suggest a dictated transcription, yet you say you're confident enough to leap to the illicit conclusion that this suggests a copying effort.

To my knowledge, I have made no such "leap" in this thread, nor do I intend to do so. Once again you are failing to read what I am saying. I have no intention to dispute, point by point, the evidence that is presented for dictation. This thread has been started to permit you and others to present the evidence for dictation. I appreciate what you have done so far in that respect and encourage you to continue. I am actually prepared to accommodate the reality that these documents are "dictation" transcripts to the extent I can be persuaded that the evidences I see for copying can be explained within a dictation theory. I don't believe you understand the way in which I have come to view the Book of Abraham. I have yet to completely explain my views in that respect.

As far as this thread is concerned, any arguments I offer will be intended to help me understand how the dictation theory deals with what at least appear to be problematic elements in the documents – such as this particular case I have just cited, where it appears that this portion of Abr. 1:12 is a secondary emendation. I have given my reasons for reaching that conclusion. If you have a response to those specific reasons, I encourage you to articulate it. Otherwise I will await Brent’s response. I am confident that he has considered the evidence to which I have referred. I am sincerely interested in how he views that evidence, and how he fits that evidence within his dictation theory.

Again, thanks for your participation. I look forward to your contributions to the discussion.
_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

William Schryver wrote:1. The parenthesis preceding “commencement” overwrites the cross of the “t” and the initial ascender of the “h” in the word “the” that appears on the subsequent line “It was after the form of a bedsted.” This is satisfactorily apparent when viewing the unmagnified document, but it is much more apparent under magnification.


Perhaps the parenthesis was written later, so as to better separate the phrase with the paragraph below.

2. The parenthesis was apparently the first character written when the emendation occurred. This is evidenced by the fact that “I will refer …” must necessarily rise in the available space in order to avoid the top of the parenthesis.


Perhaps the parenthesis ended where it does so as not to run into the 'i will refer...' words.

3. The text of the entire emendation is condensed, both vertically and horizontally, in order to fit itself in the available space. The scribe’s handwriting in the paragraphs above and below attests a letter size, letter spacing, and line spacing consistent with the majority of the document. The letter size, letter spacing, and line spacing of the emendation is anywhere from 75% - less than 50% that of the paragraphs before and after.


Just looking at the entire page, the scribe is all over the place. Sometimes he drifts upwards, sometimes downwards. Sometimes the words are smaller and squished together, other times the words are bigger, and spaced farther apart. It even appears (slightly) that the scribe drifted downwards at '...the form of a bedstead...' perhaps because of the text immediately above it?

Also, it just doesn't make sense to end at '...that you may have a knowledge of this altar' and then begin a new verse. The scribe must have known that wasn't a complete sentence, and that something would follow.

Also, there is another reference to the facsimile in verse 14. No 'confusion' is apparent there (that i can see).
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_William Schryver
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Post by _William Schryver »

Who Knows:

Perhaps the parenthesis was written later, so as to better separate the phrase with the paragraph below.

I’m afraid that doesn’t explain the nature of the evidence. I explained the reason why it is apparent that the parenthesis was the first character of the emendation.

Perhaps the parenthesis ended where it does so as not to run into the 'I will refer...' words.

I realize you don’t have a photo in front of you to look at, and I wish it were possible for me to post one, but I don’t think you can appreciate why this is not a plausible explanation for the evidence. As I said, I believe it is quite apparent that the “I will refer” was written after the parenthesis, and that the words rise to avoid it.

Just looking at the entire page, the scribe is all over the place. Sometimes he drifts upwards, sometimes downwards. Sometimes the words are smaller and squished together, other times the words are bigger, and spaced farther apart. It even appears (slightly) that the scribe drifted downwards at '...the form of a bedstead...' perhaps because of the text immediately above it?

The Williams manuscript is certainly nowhere as neat and tidy as is the Parrish manuscript, nevertheless there is a general consistency to the text throughout this page, and particularly the paragraphs immediately surrounding this apparent emendation – a consistency which makes the apparent emendation seem prominent by comparison.

Also, it just doesn't make sense to end at '...that you may have a knowledge of this altar' and then begin a new verse. The scribe must have known that wasn't a complete sentence, and that something would follow.

Well, I think your first argument is open to dispute on some grounds. It might well be argued that the sentence makes sense if read as “and that you might have knowledge of this altar, it was made after the form of a bedstead.” Nevertheless, I am willing to concede the possibility that the scribe did know something was supposed to follow “altar,” but that he wasn’t sure at the time what it was supposed to be and therefore ended at “altar” and continued on with the next character and paragraph. The fact that both scribes appear to have suffered from confusion at this point could suggest confusion originating with the source document from which they were copying, or it could suggest (assuming dictation) that the person dictating was uncertain.

Again, the purpose of this thread is for me to cite these elements that appear problematic within the context of a dictation scenario and see if there is some kind of explanation for them within that context. Perhaps there isn’t. I don’t plan to stick with this particular question forever. We’ll move on if it begins to look like there is no definitive answer to the question. But, in the meantime, I’ll be patient and see if Brent (when and if he finds the time) has something to offer vis-à-vis this question. I also think Chris Smith has thought about this a little bit and I’ve always been impressed with his opinions on things, so maybe he’ll visit the thread in between his paper-writing sessions.

Good evening to all . . .
_Brent Metcalfe
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Post by _Brent Metcalfe »

Hi Will,

You refer to,


The text-critical and orthographic evidence [snip!]



"[O]rthographic evidence"? You've lost me. What does spelling have to do with your conjectural reconstruction of the compositional order?

Here is the crux of your argument:


1. The parenthesis preceding "commencement" overwrites the cross of the "t" and the initial ascender of the "h" in the word "the" that appears on the subsequent line "It was after the form of a bedsted." This is satisfactorily apparent when viewing the unmagnified document, but it is much more apparent under magnification.



Obviously, if what you say above is not true, all other premises in your argument take on a decidedly speculative—if not specious—hue.

While aestheticians may bicker over whether a picture really speaks a thousand words, the following two pictures at least say enough to place the viability of your argument in serious doubt.


    BoAbr ms. 1a (fldr. 2), p. 1

      ... will refer ...
      ... ( commencement ...
      ... the form ...

    Image
    Ink flow detail

    Image

Readers will observe that the ink flow of the connecting stroke between the "t" and "h" in "the" is darker precisely at the point where the connecting stroke and the bottom of the curved stroke (Will's mysterious "parenthesis") meet, culminating in a pool at the apex of the "h" ascender. This ink pattern is consistent with fresh ink dragging older ink in the direction of the new stroke. In short, the "h" was written after the curved stroke. (I've personally replicated this ink pattern several times using a quill pen.)

(FYI, your transcription of F. Williams' handwriting includes a glaring mistake.)

My best,

</brent>
_ludwigm
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Post by _ludwigm »

William Schryver wrote:KG:
Did Brian and John actually say you could use the photos for yourself, but that you could never share them in a critical forum?
My restrictions on use of the KEP images originate with the Church Archives.

Are the "KEP images" secr.. (Oh, sorry) sacred?
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

You seem to be forgetting that the dictation theory depends on both manuscripts being produced simultaneously. Therefore, if one of the documents shows evidence of being a copy, then the theory must be revised.


Only if the quantity and quality of evidence can outweigh the plethora of evidence in favor of dictation. So far you have produced just one stroke of speculative theory based on questionable analysis of a tiny ink line. Really, Will. And even with this example you still haven't explained how this points to a copying process. Why couldn't emendations be subsequently added to dictation manuscripts?

You haven't even begun to address the majority of evidences contrary to your theory here. And you seem to be forgetting that the copyist theory depends on both manuscripts being produced from a mysterious source document. If this was truly an emendation in the Williams manuscript, then it must also be true for the Parrish manuscript. This was my question, which you have yet to address. WHy doesn't the evidence from the Parrish manuscript support your theory?

To my knowledge, I have made no such "leap" in this thread, nor do I intend to do so.


Well, you keep assuring us how confident you are in your "conclusion." And you keep falling back on anonymous authorities to support it.

Once again you are failing to read what I am saying.


You're being less than clear. Your use of the word "overlay" left me wondering what the significance was for the parenthesis to have been placed "over" the word "the." But now I understand you meant overwritten (i.e. literally on top of)

I have no intention to dispute, point by point, the evidence that is presented for dictation.


Well, why not? You're willing to ignore all this evidence in order to persist in a theory that flies in its face? This is not a text-critical method I am familiar with. It is apologetic in nature, not scholarly. Scholars follow the evidence to reach a reasonable conclusion. They do not begin with a conclusion and then accept evidence according to its accommodating nature. This is not how conclusions are reasonably drawn in a scholarly manner.

This thread has been started to permit you and others to present the evidence for dictation. I appreciate what you have done so far in that respect and encourage you to continue. I am actually prepared to accommodate the reality that these documents are "dictation" transcripts to the extent I can be persuaded that the evidences I see for copying can be explained within a dictation theory.


See, you're operating backwards. When the quality and quantity of the evidence favors X, you don't begin with the assumption that Y must be true anyway. Instead of accepting X and accommodating it with whatever evidences you think support Y, you're operating backwards.

I don't believe you understand the way in which I have come to view the Book of Abraham. I have yet to completely explain my views in that respect.


Perhaps so. You're certainly no stranger to shifting paradigms.

As far as this thread is concerned, any arguments I offer will be intended to help me understand how the dictation theory deals with what at least appear to be problematic elements in the documents – such as this particular case I have just cited, where it appears that this portion of Abr. 1:12 is a secondary emendation. I have given my reasons for reaching that conclusion.


Yes, and a conclusion based on evidence you cannot show.

by the way, since when were the Church archives open to amateur film makers? How did you swing that?
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

Here you state your purpose in bringing up Book of Abraham 1:12:

William Schryver wrote:Again, the purpose of this thread is for me to cite these elements that appear problematic within the context of a dictation scenario and see if there is some kind of explanation for them within that context.


But then you say:

The fact that both scribes appear to have suffered from confusion at this point could suggest confusion originating with the source document from which they were copying, or it could suggest (assuming dictation) that the person dictating was uncertain.


As you say, this item (1:12) doesn't really say much either way as to whether this was a copy, or a dictation. And it certainly isn't 'problematic' for the dictation scenario.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_William Schryver
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Post by _William Schryver »

Brent:

"[O]rthographic evidence"? You've lost me. What does spelling have to do with your conjectural reconstruction of the compositional order?

Certainly my intent was not to lose you, but if that was the effect of my employment of the term orthography to describe the difference in letter size and spacing between the apparent emendation and the rest of the text, I sincerely apologize. Despite the fact that orthography is certainly an applicable term, I will seek to be more democratic in my language in the future. I might note that (as a quick reference to Wikipedia would show) orthography is mistakenly believed to be only the study/science of spelling:

While "orthography" colloquially is often used synonymously with spelling, spelling is only part of orthography.

Wikipedia, under the entry “Orthography”


Orthography, in its complete sense, is the study/science of how letters are actually made. In fact, you will find that an orthographic drawing is a drawing that attempts to portray a three-dimensional object in two dimensions -- front, side, top. (See also orthographic projection). Again, I apologize if my non-colloquial usage seemed idiosyncratic to you.

But let’s move on to the actual subject matter, shall we?

In response to my first listed evidence (the question of the parenthesis) that we are dealing with a secondary emendation, you wrote:

Obviously, if what you say above is not true, all other premises in your argument take on a decidedly speculative—if not specious—hue.

I could not disagree more. Indeed, the fact that the text of the apparently inserted phrase is considerably condensed (see my item #3 above) is the strongest and most obvious evidence for it being a secondary emendation – and there is no relationship between the character size and spacing that signify the emendation and the separate issue of the parenthesis, which merely serves to reinforce the conclusion suggested by the condensed text of the insertion.

Indeed, if there were not already a line written below the inserted emendation, there would have been no reason to condense the letters and spacing of the inserted phrase; nothing would have demarked the space available for the insertion. Simply put, Williams has inserted two lines in the space previously allotted to one line. That space is circumscribed by the line of the next paragraph having been written prior to the insertion having been made.

Frankly, even if we dispense entirely with the question of the parenthesis, the text-critical evidence is all but overwhelming that we are dealing with a secondary emendation here. I find it difficult to believe that you are apparently going to make the argument that this is not an insertion, but was written in the course of the “dictation” process. You’re really going to be up against a compelling body of counter-evidence and counter-analysis if you puruse this course – and not just from an amateur hack like me.

Nevertheless, let us examine your expressed rationale that the parenthesis was written before the subsequent line. Your analysis attempts to explain the pooled ink at the ascender of the word “the” by saying that the ink from the previously-written parenthesis was still wet, and that the scribe writing “the” dragged some of this ink along with the ascender of the “h”.

I find your analysis entirely unpersuasive. In fact, I think the best explanation is just the opposite of what you have suggested. The pool of ink was left by the scribe’s pen immediately after he had finished writing the parenthesis, and in the course of his pen moving back up to the remainder of the insertion. Under greater magnification, there is a distinct connection between the termination of the parenthesis and the ink pool above. Also, the terminating bottom curve of the parenthesis can be seen to pass over the ascender of the “h”.

Furthermore, a cursory examination of several instances of “the” in the Williams manuscript shows that the scribe never pauses at the point in question. His movement is consistently back down from the apex of the ascender, leaving not even a hint of an ink pool at the apex. I consider your suggestion that “ink flow” from the course of the “h” ascender is responsible for the pool to be completely nonsensical. An ink pool is caused only by the scribe pausing at the completion of a stroke. The scribe never pauses at that point when writing the word “the”. The ink pool we see is connected to the termination of the parenthesis, not to the transition from ascent to descent in the formation of the “h”.

In any case, this will no doubt be a question that will remain unresolved in the course of our discussion on this message board. We both see the evidence in question, but disagree on the meaning of that evidence. I suppose that is to be expected. So I am willing to leave the issue of the parenthesis to other professionals who will consider the question.

I might inquire as to why you think the scribe would employ a parenthesis at all? Why, if we are dealing with a phrase made in the context of a continuing dictation, would the scribe decide to randomly insert a lone parenthesis in the middle of sentence? Doesn’t that strike you as unusual in the least? After all, a parenthesis is always an initial indicator of some kind of inserted comment. Hence the colloquial term, “a parenthetical comment.” Why would Williams choose to insert this parenthesis in the middle of his sentence in the course of transcribing a dictation?

You also failed to address item #2 above: “I will refer” clearly rises to avoid the top of the parenthesis. How do you explain this if the parenthesis was not written first?

And, finally, how do you explain the fact that Williams has inserted two lines in the space previously allotted for only one?

I appreciate your previous reply and look forward to the next . . .
Last edited by The Stig on Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_William Schryver
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Post by _William Schryver »

KG,

I’m not sure how to respond to your post since you don’t appear to engage the topic at hand at any point. You spend a lot of time on what I’m assuming you view as the “bigger picture” – but I’d really like to focus in on each of the various details in question.

Do you dispute that the phrase “I will refer you to the representation that is at the commencement of this record” is a secondary emendation? If so, why? What evidence would you marshall to contest the three points I made above? Do you contest that Williams inserted two lines into the space alotted to one? Do you contest that the initial phrase “I will refer” rises to avoid the parenthesis? Do you contest that the parenthesis appears to be written over the top of the word “the” in the line below? If so, please give your reasons.

Again, I intend to cite some of the elements I see as posing problems for the dictation theory in order to assess the explanations being offered. We’ll stick with this issue of Abr. 1:12 for a while longer and then we’ll move on to something else.

See, you're operating backwards. When the quality and quantity of the evidence favors X, you don't begin with the assumption that Y must be true anyway. Instead of accepting X and accommodating it with whatever evidences you think support Y, you're operating backwards.

This is simply not true. As I stated above, I am quite prepared to accept the paradigm of an oral dictation session if it can be demonstrated to my satisfaction. My tentative conclusion that these documents appear to be copies is subject to revision or rejection. Indeed, I have already considered the very real possibility that the Metcalfe theory is correct, assessed that theory within the parameters of my belief in the Book of Abraham as inspired scripture, and I find myself able to accommodate both realities simultaneously.

by the way, since when were the Church archives open to amateur film makers? How did you swing that?

I’ve been paying 11% for several years. Therefore I get platinum privileges. ;-)

Also, I’m much more than just an amateur filmmaker. I’m a great husband, a fantastic lover, a good dad, a great horse trainer, a quasi-professional tractor operator, a good pianist/organist, a half-decent guitarist, a passable singer, an awesome songwriter, a superb breadmaker, a mighty hunter . . . why, the list goes on and on. I’m even a good enough software developer that I’ve been able to get paid good money (lots more than a college professor!) for doing it from home now for over ten years – not to mention the years I slaved away in corporate America prior to that.

Anyway, I do appreciate your input in the thread, but I hope we can keep it focused.

I look forward to your next reply . . .
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