Chastity

[_ajax18]

Polygamy makes perfect sense to those reared in the gospel, it is only strange to those from the outside looking in.

Gaz

Even among members there is disagreement about polygamy. Perhaps if you has said, "to those reared by the gospel", but even that would have a disrespectful ting to it. No, it is probably better to just think of polygamy as an aberration and let it go at that.

We worship the God of Abraham, Isacc, and Jacob. They were polygamists.

The catch-22 question is....Abraham, Isacc, and Jacob were polygamists. But were they polygamists based on the cultural nature of that time frame, or because God commanded it?

Polygamy was a cultural norm that was not frowned upon by God. But that is different from polygamy being a commanded way of life.

Why is polygamy not mentioned in the New Testament? The New Testament when Christ came and fulfilled the law?

Why is the marriage emphasis in the New Testament on one man and one woman?

Christ's coming and fulfilling the law was supposed to be the restoration of all things. That's why animal sacrifices ceased to be needed. Animal sacrifices were a symbol of Christ's (the lamb's) sacrifice. The lamb was crucified and resurrected. Therefore, there was no longer a need for this practice.

And if Joseph Smith restored polygamy as a part of the restoration of all things, then why was animal sacrifice also not restored?

There was no need for animal sacrifice to be restored because Jesus fulfilled that law.

That's why this explanation about restoring polygamy has always been on shaky ground with me.

Surprise, Gaz...I graduated from seminary, too.

;)

I had always been taught that there would be a time for animal sacrifices to be brought back. Granted it's tough to be sure on anything when it comes to Mormon doctrine, but the setting in which these stalwart leaders decided to elucidate the principle to me had nothing to do with defending the practice of polygamy.

[_ajax18]

Inconceivable,

Thanks....now I know where you are coming from...

In evolutionary terms I can understand that polygamy might be beneficial and even necessary under some circumstances,
but Joseph's attempt at re-instituting it, for whatever reason (and I think his motives were less than admirable on some levels) were a damning
failure. It did him, nor the church any good, genetically, socially and psychologically. I'm not saying that there weren't men who could
practice it with integrity...but the practice has such shaky foundations that I wouldn't want to bet my life on living it. It is a practice for rich and powerful
men. Historically I should suspect it was the same, and it is that way in the Muslim world today. The ancient Jewish New Testament practice of using it as a form of social protection to widows and orphans is much more acceptable in a society that has no monetary welfare system.

What I don't understand is why members are all too quick to jump on the 'Bible did it' bandwagon, without also jumping on
all the 'other' things that the Bible contains in terms of what we would consider to be unethical practice.

Genocide, incest, murder, to name but a few..For me, it's dangerous ground, since you can justify almost anything by using the Bible, particularly the Old Testament as an ethical base.

Mary

What in the Jewish Old Testament did Joseph Smith and early Church leaders not defend? Genocide, while awful, seemed to have a place. After all, God himself ordered it. Killing people for steadying the ark or committing adultery, Probably not the way I'd have wanted to go about things either, but I've never heard the Church leaders attach any sin to the prophets who did this nor suggest that it was not in fact God who ordered it.

[_Gazelam]

Sorry I haven't been back to this thread as often as I would have liked. I've been working alot of long hours.

Jersey, you were asking for dates, so here you are:

Abraham:

Keturah - Wife of Abraham after Sarah's death (Gen. 25:1,4; 1 Chr. 1:32-33); rom this union sprang various tribes, including the Midianites.

Sarai (Sarah) - Gen. 11:29 - 17:15. She was married to Abraham before he left Ur. In her old age she became the mother of Isacc. (Gen. 21:2). She died 28 years before her husband and buried in the cave of Machpelah at Hebron (Gen 23:2)

Hagar - An Egyptian handmaid of Sarah and mother of Abrahams son Ishmael (Gen. 16:1-16; 21:9-21; 25:12) After the birth of Isacc, the "Child of promise," Hagar and her son were expelled.


Isacc:

Rebekah - Daughter of Bethuel and sister of Laban; married to Isaac (Gen. 22: 23; Gen. 24); mother of Esau and Jacob (Gen. 25: 20-28); pretends to be Isaac’s sister (Gen. 26: 7, 8); angry with Esau (Gen. 26: 35), and helps to obtain the blessing for Jacob (Gen. 27; Gen. 28: 5; Gen. 29: 12); her grave (Gen. 49: 31)


Jacob:

Zilpah - Gen. 35: 26
26 And the sons of Zilpah, Leah’s handmaid; Gad, and Asher: these are the sons of Jacob, which were born to him in Padan-aram

Leah - Eldest daughter of Laban. She became Jacob’s wife through a trick of Laban’s, who passed her off as his daughter Rachel; being veiled, the mistake was not discovered till after the marriage had taken place (Gen. 29). She became the mother of six sons and one daughter (Gen. 29: 30-32; Gen. 30: 17-21; see also Gen. 31: 4, 14, 33; Gen. 33: 1-2, 7; Gen. 35: 23, 26; Gen. 49: 31).

Rachel - The younger of the daughters of Laban, the dearly loved wife of Jacob, and mother of Joseph and Benjamin (Gen. 29 - 31; Gen. 33: 1-2, 7; Gen. 35: 16, 24-25; Gen. 46: 19, 22, 25); her grave (Gen. 35: 19-20; Gen. 48: 7; 1 Sam. 10: 2). Jeremiah, in a very beautiful passage, pictures Rachel as weeping in Ramah for her children, the descendants of Benjamin, Ramah being the place at which the exiles were assembled before their departure for Babylon (Jer. 31: 15). Matthew quotes the passage in his description of the mourning at Bethlehem (where Rachel’s grave was) after the murder of the children (Matt. 2: 18).

Bilhah - Rachel’s handmaid and wife of Jacob; the mother of Dan and Naphtali (Gen. 29: 29; Gen. 30: 3-7; Gen. 35: 22, 25; Gen. 37: 2; Gen. 46: 25; 1 Chr. 7: 13).


Will do more on this Jersey, but Im faling asleep at the whell here, literally, I gota go to bed.

All the best

Gaz

[_Yoda]

Polygamy makes perfect sense to those reared in the gospel, it is only strange to those from the outside looking in.

Gaz

Even among members there is disagreement about polygamy. Perhaps if you has said, "to those reared by the gospel", but even that would have a disrespectful ting to it. No, it is probably better to just think of polygamy as an aberration and let it go at that.

We worship the God of Abraham, Isacc, and Jacob. They were polygamists.

The catch-22 question is....Abraham, Isacc, and Jacob were polygamists. But were they polygamists based on the cultural nature of that time frame, or because God commanded it?

Polygamy was a cultural norm that was not frowned upon by God. But that is different from polygamy being a commanded way of life.

Why is polygamy not mentioned in the New Testament? The New Testament when Christ came and fulfilled the law?

Why is the marriage emphasis in the New Testament on one man and one woman?

Christ's coming and fulfilling the law was supposed to be the restoration of all things. That's why animal sacrifices ceased to be needed. Animal sacrifices were a symbol of Christ's (the lamb's) sacrifice. The lamb was crucified and resurrected. Therefore, there was no longer a need for this practice.

And if Joseph Smith restored polygamy as a part of the restoration of all things, then why was animal sacrifice also not restored?

There was no need for animal sacrifice to be restored because Jesus fulfilled that law.

That's why this explanation about restoring polygamy has always been on shaky ground with me.

Surprise, Gaz...I graduated from seminary, too.

;)

I had always been taught that there would be a time for animal sacrifices to be brought back. Granted it's tough to be sure on anything when it comes to Mormon doctrine, but the setting in which these stalwart leaders decided to elucidate the principle to me had nothing to do with defending the practice of polygamy.

Were you ever supplied with a reference in regard to animal sacrifice being restored? I've been a member of the Church all my life (43 years), and I had always been taught that Christ's crucifixion and resurrection fulfilled the law in regard to animal sacrifice. Animal sacrifice was literally symbolic of the lamb of God. Once the lamb came and fulfilled the law, there was no longer a need for the sacrifice to continue. This was the same with the Law of Moses. The Law of Christ was a higher law which fulfilled the lower law.

[_Gazelam]

In Gen. 15, the Lord had promised Abraham that his posterity would be as numerous as the stars.

As Sarai continued to be infertile, God's promise that Abram's seed would inherit the land seemed incapable of fulfillment. His sole heir was his servant, who was over his household, a certain Eliezer of Damascus (15:2). Abraham is now promised as heir one of his own flesh. The passage recording the ratification of the promise is remarkably solemn (see Genesis 15). Sarai, in accordance with custom, gave to Abram her Egyptian handmaid Hagar as his wife.(Gen 16:3)

Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham in accordance with law. It is known now that, according to the Code of Hammurabi, which, in many respects, resembles the later Mosaic law, if a mans wife is childless, he is allowed to take a concubine and bring her into his house, though he was not to place her upon an equal footing with his first wife, or the first wife might give her husband a maid-servant. This was the law in the country from which Abraham came. A concubine was a wife of inferior social rank.

In regards to Isacc there is no record of any plural marriage of this Patriarch, but the probability is that he followed the custom of his age. How is it, on any other supposition, to be explained that Jacob accepted Laban's arrangement without protest? Where, if not in his own home, had he learned that plural marriage was not at that time unlawful?

"It is not to be supposed that, in a time when polygamy was usual, the young sheyk remained celibate till forty. The marriage to one of the kin, Rebekah, was the political mariage for the clan, to set up a fresh chieftainess after Sarah was dead." (W.M. Flanders Petrie, Egypt and Israel, p.24.)

Abraham Isacc and Jacob were all exalted prophets of God. If there was any wrongdoing in their relationships, they would not have enjoyed the presence and blessings of God. The truth is here reiterated, that whatever is done in the name of God, according to His law and by His direction, cannot be sin. What human law regards as a crime may, or may not, from the Divine point of view, be a sin.

Jacob had twelve sons by his two wives (Leah, Rachel) and two concubines (Bilhah, Zilpah), as follows:

By Leah: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun.
By Bilhah: Dan and Naphtali.
By Zilpah: Gad and Asher.
By Rachel: Joseph and Benjamin.
These 12 sons comprise the twelve Tribes of Israel. These tribes were recorded on the vestments of the Kohen Gadol (high priest). However, when the land of Israel was apportioned among the tribes in the days of Joshua, the Tribe of Levi, being priests, did not receive land. Therefore, when the tribes are listed in reference to their receipt of land, as well as to their encampments during the 40 years of wandering in the desert, the Tribe of Joseph is replaced by the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh (the two sons of Joseph by his Egyptian wife Asenath, whom Jacob elevated to the status of full tribes).

Each of these children became the tribe of Israel, inheritors of the blessings promised to their Fathers. If there was unrighteousness in the relationships of their Fathers, then it was not recognized by God, on the contrary, it was Israel who held the resposibility of bringing the gospel and its ordinances to the people. To this day, all who are baptised become members of the House of Israel regardles of what their literal blood ancestry may have been.

[_Blixa]

Polygamy makes perfect sense to those reared in the gospel, it is only strange to those from the outside looking in.

Gaz

Even among members there is disagreement about polygamy. Perhaps if you has said, "to those reared by the gospel", but even that would have a disrespectful ting to it. No, it is probably better to just think of polygamy as an aberration and let it go at that.

We worship the God of Abraham, Isacc, and Jacob. They were polygamists.

The catch-22 question is....Abraham, Isacc, and Jacob were polygamists. But were they polygamists based on the cultural nature of that time frame, or because God commanded it?

Polygamy was a cultural norm that was not frowned upon by God. But that is different from polygamy being a commanded way of life.

Why is polygamy not mentioned in the New Testament? The New Testament when Christ came and fulfilled the law?

Why is the marriage emphasis in the New Testament on one man and one woman?

Christ's coming and fulfilling the law was supposed to be the restoration of all things. That's why animal sacrifices ceased to be needed. Animal sacrifices were a symbol of Christ's (the lamb's) sacrifice. The lamb was crucified and resurrected. Therefore, there was no longer a need for this practice.

And if Joseph Smith restored polygamy as a part of the restoration of all things, then why was animal sacrifice also not restored?

There was no need for animal sacrifice to be restored because Jesus fulfilled that law.

That's why this explanation about restoring polygamy has always been on shaky ground with me.

Surprise, Gaz...I graduated from seminary, too.

;)

I had always been taught that there would be a time for animal sacrifices to be brought back. Granted it's tough to be sure on anything when it comes to Mormon doctrine, but the setting in which these stalwart leaders decided to elucidate the principle to me had nothing to do with defending the practice of polygamy.

Were you ever supplied with a reference in regard to animal sacrifice being restored? I've been a member of the Church all my life (43 years), and I had always been taught that Christ's crucifixion and resurrection fulfilled the law in regard to animal sacrifice. Animal sacrifice was literally symbolic of the lamb of God. Once the lamb came and fulfilled the law, there was no longer a need for the sacrifice to continue. This was the same with the Law of Moses. The Law of Christ was a higher law which fulfilled the lower law.

liz...there was a thread here earlier (not sure which forum) about animal sacrifice. I remember that Don Bradley posted some interesting things on it. My only other memory of it is that I *promised* to come back and post some of my ideas, too. And I never did. And I have a turkey in the oven at the moment, too.

So, maybe we should try to resurrect this thread (my memory banks also tell me that Trinity started the thread?)

[_Gazelam]

To complete the restoration of all things, apparently on a one-time basis, sacrifices will again be offered in this dispensation. John the Baptist, for instance, brought back the commision and power whereby the sons of Levi shall offer again in righteousness those offerings which they made in ancient days. (D.&C. 13.)

Malachi foretold that such offerings would be attend to again in the day of the Second Coming of Christ. (Mal. 3:1-4.) Joseph Smith, commenting upon Malachi's prophecy, explained how this could be: "It is generally supposed that sacrifice was entirely done away when the great sacrifice of the Lord Jesus was offered up, and there will be no necessity for the ordinance of sacrifice in [the] future; but those who assert this are certainly not aquainted with the duties, privileges and authority of the priesthood, or with the prophets.

"The offering of sacrifice has ever been connected and forms a part of the duties of the priesthood. it began with the priesthood, and will be continued until after the coming of Christ, from generation to generation. We frequently have mention made of the offering of sacrifice by the servants of the Most High in ancient days, prior to the law of Moses; which ordinances will be continued when the priesthood is restored with all its authority, power and blessings...

"These sacrifices, as well as every ordinance belonging to the priesthood, will, when the Temple of the Lord shall be built, and the sons of Levi be purified, be fully restored and attended to in all their powers, ramifications, and blessings. This ever did and ever will exist when the powers of the Melchisedek Priesthood are sufficiently manifest; else how can the restitution of all things spoken of by the holy prophets be brought to pass. It is not to be understood that the law of Moses will be established again with all its rites and viriety of ceremonies; this has never been spoken of by the prophets; but those things which existed prior to Moses' day, namely sacrifice, will be continued." (teachings, pp. 172-173; Doctrines of Salvation, vol.3 p.94.)

[_harmony]

In Gen. 15, the Lord had promised Abraham that his posterity would be as numerous as the stars.

As Sarai continued to be infertile, God's promise that Abram's seed would inherit the land seemed incapable of fulfillment. His sole heir was his servant, who was over his household, a certain Eliezer of Damascus (15:2). Abraham is now promised as heir one of his own flesh. The passage recording the ratification of the promise is remarkably solemn (see Genesis 15). Sarai, in accordance with custom, gave to Abram her Egyptian handmaid Hagar as his wife.(Gen 16:3)

Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham in accordance with law. It is known now that, according to the Code of Hammurabi, which, in many respects, resembles the later Mosaic law, if a mans wife is childless, he is allowed to take a concubine and bring her into his house, though he was not to place her upon an equal footing with his first wife, or the first wife might give her husband a maid-servant. This was the law in the country from which Abraham came. A concubine was a wife of inferior social rank.

#1. please prove that Abraham actually lived.

#2. Because of the mythical Abraham's inability to wait on God, to be patient, we have had continual enmity between those traditionally from Sarah's blood line and those traditionally from Hagar. The mythical Abraham screwed up. There is no way around it, and because of his mythical impatience, millions of real people continue to suffer and die.

In regards to Isacc there is no record of any plural marriage of this Patriarch, but the probability is that he followed the custom of his age.

Oh sure. There's no record, so let's just invent one!

Abraham Isacc and Jacob were all exalted prophets of God. If there was any wrongdoing in their relationships, they would not have enjoyed the presence and blessings of God.

This is bogus reasoning. Moses killed a man; he was a prophet. Jonah was a coward; he was a prophet. Noah was a drunkard; he was a prophet. Heck, let's fast forward... Joseph F Smith beat his wife; he was a prophet. Righteousness has little to do with being a prophet, Gaz. The only thing required to be a prophet is that people believe that you are.

The truth is here reiterated, that whatever is done in the name of God, according to His law and by His direction, cannot be sin. What human law regards as a crime may, or may not, from the Divine point of view, be a sin.

Then I guess we can figure out that which is of God, and that which is not. That leaves out several of our latterday prophets, in addition to several of the ancient ones. You sure you want to go with this reasoning?

[_Gazelam]

Harmony,

#1. please prove that Abraham actually lived.

John 8:56-59
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

So does your thimbleful of faith have room for Christ not being a liar?

[_Jason Bourne]

Gaz

Please show that God commanded polygamy in the Old Testament, required it as an ordinance for exaltation and commanded Polyandry.