The Book of Mormon describes a "narrow strip of wilderness" or natural land feature that divided the land of Nephi from the land of Zarahemla.59 It "ran from the Sea East even to the Sea West" (Alma 22:27).
In his Modern Geography (1822), Sidney E. Morse gives this description of an unusual ridge of land in the area of my proposed land of Zarahemla. From Genesse River, near its mouth, to Lewiston on the Niagara River, there is a remarkable ridge running in a direction from east to west almost the whole distance, which is 78 miles. Its general height above the neighboring land is 30 feet: its width varies considerably, and in some places is not more than 40 yards . . . and its distance from that water (Lake Ontario) is between 6 and 10 miles. . . about 20 miles south of this ridge and parallel with it, there is another, which runs from Genesee River to Black Rock on Niagara River.
The Book of Mormon writer may have thought of this area [the continuation of the Niagara Escarpment] as a narrow strip of wilderness running from the east sea to the west sea. [An alternative identification would be the Welland Canal lands, in Spaulding's day a narrow, N-S oriented strip of swampy low-lands which intersected the Niagara Escarpment just south of present-day St. Catherines, Ontario).
The Book of Mormon describes a "narrow strip of wilderness" or natural land feature that divided the land of Nephi from the land of Zarahemla.59 It "ran from the Sea East even to the Sea West" (Alma 22:27).
In his Modern Geography (1822), Sidney E. Morse gives this description of an unusual ridge of land in the area of my proposed land of Zarahemla. From Genesse River, near its mouth, to Lewiston on the Niagara River, there is a remarkable ridge running in a direction from east to west almost the whole distance, which is 78 miles. Its general height above the neighboring land is 30 feet: its width varies considerably, and in some places is not more than 40 yards . . . and its distance from that water (Lake Ontario) is between 6 and 10 miles. . . about 20 miles south of this ridge and parallel with it, there is another, which runs from Genesee River to Black Rock on Niagara River.
The Book of Mormon writer may have thought of this area [the continuation of the Niagara Escarpment] as a narrow strip of wilderness running from the east sea to the west sea. [An alternative identification would be the Welland Canal lands, in Spaulding's day a narrow, N-S oriented strip of swampy low-lands which intersected the Niagara Escarpment just south of present-day St. Catherines, Ontario).
From what I know of Holley's map, his geography is based more on name simiilarities. These name similarities don't match with directions given in the Book of Mormon for relationships bewteen places.
charity wrote:From what I know of Holley's map, his geography is based more on name simiilarities. These name similarities don't match with directions given in the Book of Mormon for relationships bewteen places.
Do they need to?
They only need to if one is trying to establish that area as a legitimate historic location for the writings contained in the Book of Mormon. If they were simply names used to inspire fictional writing, then relationships between places is irrelevant.
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
charity wrote:From what I know of Holley's map, his geography is based more on name simiilarities. These name similarities don't match with directions given in the Book of Mormon for relationships bewteen places.
Do they need to?
They only need to if one is trying to establish that area as a legitimate historic location for the writings contained in the Book of Mormon. If they were simply names used to inspire fictional writing, then relationships between places is irrelevant.
The Holley map was put up in this thread on geography. If you want to talk about the resurrected Spaulding theory of Book of Mormon authorship that is a different question. Read this and start a new thread if you would like. I will participate.
I think it's utterly fascinating how Book of Mormon names and the like are to be found within the borders of our country and up north. Does this bother me! Heavens no! It seems like a breeze before the coming rains – could be inspiration in the hearts and minds of those who named the lands. How fitting! I believe God is the author of the Book of Mormon via his prophets and it’s not at all strange to me that he might also find pleasure in spreading the names of this work upon this land as a tribute to those who formerly lived here in ancient days.
I think the critics of the Book of Mormon need to soften their hearts and think outside the box. I’ve seen too many times how LDS critics can be awfully narrow minded and just don’t know how to think outside the box. They are often easily lead and swayed by the cunning and craftiness of Satan.
Of course, I’m not pointing fingers at anyone on this board at this time.
Paul Osborne wrote:I think it's utterly fascinating how Book of Mormon names and the like are to be found within the borders of our country and up north. Does this bother me! Heavens no! It seems like a breeze before the coming rains – could be inspiration in the hearts and minds of those who named the lands. How fitting! I believe God is the author of the Book of Mormon via his prophets and it’s not at all strange to me that he might also find pleasure in spreading the names of this work upon this land as a tribute to those who formerly lived here in ancient days.
I think the critics of the Book of Mormon need to soften their hearts and think outside the box. I’ve seen too many times how LDS critics can be awfully narrow minded and just don’t know how to think outside the box. They are often easily lead and swayed by the cunning and craftiness of Satan.
Of course, I’m not pointing fingers at anyone on this board at this time.
Paul O
I would rather submit that the names sound familiar because that was the area of the country that Joseph Smith was familiar with himself.
"What does God need with a starship?" - Captain James T. Kirk
Most people would like to be delivered from temptation but would like it to keep in touch. - Robert Orben
Paul Osborne wrote:I think it's utterly fascinating how Book of Mormon names and the like are to be found within the borders of our country and up north. Does this bother me! Heavens no! It seems like a breeze before the coming rains – could be inspiration in the hearts and minds of those who named the lands. How fitting! I believe God is the author of the Book of Mormon via his prophets and it’s not at all strange to me that he might also find pleasure in spreading the names of this work upon this land as a tribute to those who formerly lived here in ancient days.
I think the critics of the Book of Mormon need to soften their hearts and think outside the box. I’ve seen too many times how LDS critics can be awfully narrow minded and just don’t know how to think outside the box. They are often easily lead and swayed by the cunning and craftiness of Satan.
Of course, I’m not pointing fingers at anyone on this board at this time.
Paul O
Thanks Paul. I knew you would have a different take on it than the standard apologetic "empirical" dismissal (the geography is wrong for the Book of Mormon) and yet still posit a believing view. I find your views much like a breeze coming before rains, too, since your ideas always have an internal logic to them and are grounded more in "faith" than in trying to bend the laws of nature or simultaneously use and dismiss science in an effort to some how prove something is "true" or not: the "mainstream" apologetic MO. In fact I seriously wonder why FARMS/FAIR et. al have taken this route and not the course you've charted. It seems that while they hold out for faith as a last ditch catch all, their first line of defense is always an attempt to try to fit things into "scientifistic" or faux academic discourses.
Shouldn't it all be about faith anyway? Not that I would find that an adequate explanation myself, but as I said, at least it has a certain internal consistency and even dignity.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
The reason the FARMers won't go with Holley is due to the fact that this region had nowhere near the population base required for the social complexity in the Book of Mormon. Mesoamerica is the only region - according to our current knowledge, of course - that had anything even close to the social complexity and population base required.
So the FARMers will force the Book of Mormon to fit Mesoamerica, no matter how much they have to hammer the text in order to do so.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
beastie wrote:The reason the FARMers won't go with Holley is due to the fact that this region had nowhere near the population base required for the social complexity in the Book of Mormon. Mesoamerica is the only region - according to our current knowledge, of course - that had anything even close to the social complexity and population base required.
So the FARMers will force the Book of Mormon to fit Mesoamerica, no matter how much they have to hammer the text in order to do so.
Tee hee. This is a funny post. The reason scholars don't go with Holley is that it doesn't fit the Book of Mormon. And how much would you have to hammer the text of the Book of Mormon to make it fit into an area with the climate of western New York/southern Ontario? A simple word search in the Book of Mormon will show you that the word "snow" only appears once in the Book of Mormon, and that is before they even leave the Old World.
Nothing in the narrative suggests ice or snow or any cold weather military compaigns. None of the water is mentioned as freezing over.
charity wrote: Tee hee. This is a funny post. The reason scholars don't go with Holley is that it doesn't fit the Book of Mormon. And how much would you have to hammer the text of the Book of Mormon to make it fit into an area with the climate of western New York/southern Ontario? A simple word search in the Book of Mormon will show you that the word "snow" only appears once in the Book of Mormon, and that is before they even leave the Old World.
Nothing in the narrative suggests ice or snow or any cold weather military compaigns. None of the water is mentioned as freezing over.
You can't hammer your way out of that.
Is there any mention of cold weather military campaigns in the Bible?
