Narrow neck of land

[_beastie]

fanatic= a person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal, as in religion or politics.

beastie, the operant word here is uncritical. That is what sets faithful members apart from fanatics. Every member of the Church is taught, counseled, advised, cajoled to study for themselves, ponder, pray, receive their own and in groups and finally get their own spiritual confirmation, We are told not to rely on any other person, but to have our own spiritual strength. If we are studying, pondering, listening, discussing, there is a great deal of critical thought going on.

You are doing what you have been taught to do. You are uncritically accepting that your private, testimonial/spiritual event means exactly what you think it means.

If you thought critically about it you would realize that it is simply not possible for you to KNOW that your spiritual event was/is qualitatively different than that which "fanatics" experience.

It is not possible due to the very nature and definition of the event - it is completely internal and unmeasurable.

Abraham was told by God. Nephi was instructed by an angel. The pioneers had not choice. Fanatics drove them from their homes in the winter. That is the difference between a faithful member and a fanatic.

You think that the followers of Heaven's Gate DIDN'T think they were being "told by God" to kill themselves, to castrate themselves??? That's why they DID IT.

[_charity]

fanatic= a person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal, as in religion or politics.

beastie, the operant word here is uncritical. That is what sets faithful members apart from fanatics. Every member of the Church is taught, counseled, advised, cajoled to study for themselves, ponder, pray, receive their own and in groups and finally get their own spiritual confirmation, We are told not to rely on any other person, but to have our own spiritual strength. If we are studying, pondering, listening, discussing, there is a great deal of critical thought going on.

You are doing what you have been taught to do. You are uncritically accepting that your private, testimonial/spiritual event means exactly what you think it means.

If you thought critically about it you would realize that it is simply not possible for you to KNOW that your spiritual event was/is qualitatively different than that which "fanatics" experience.

It is not possible due to the very nature and definition of the event - it is completely internal and unmeasurable.

And it is not possible for you to say anything about the nature of my "event(s)." You are like a male obstetrician telling his patient just about to deliver that he knows what she is going through. But it is possible for a woman who has gone through labor to tell another woman that she is having false labor.

Abraham was told by God. Nephi was instructed by an angel. The pioneers had not choice. Fanatics drove them from their homes in the winter. That is the difference between a faithful member and a fanatic.

You think that the followers of Heaven's Gate DIDN'T think they were being "told by God" to kill themselves, to castrate themselves??? That's why they DID IT.

And you know this how? They came back from the grave and told you what they were thinking and "knowing?"

[_beastie]

And it is not possible for you to say anything about the nature of my "event(s)." You are like a male obstetrician telling his patient just about to deliver that he knows what she is going through. But it is possible for a woman who has gone through labor to tell another woman that she is having false labor.

Once again, it is impossible for you to KNOW what I've experienced or not experienced in terms of spiritual events. By definition, these events are completely internal and unmeasurable. You don't even know if other believers have experienced what you've experienced.

And you know this how? They came back from the grave and told you what they were thinking and "knowing?"

I know this because they told us why they did what they did before their deaths. Aren't they allowed to speak for themselves?

The Heaven Gaters were intelligent people who had, up to the time of their conversions, functioned very well in society. They weren't like raving schizophrenics hacking off their genitals. They just really, really believed in their own religious theology, which asked them to make extraordinary sacrifices (like their genitalia). They didn't even view their suicides as a sacrifice, they were just entering the next level.

When an otherwise sane human being is willing to castrate himself or to kill himself for his religious beliefs, it's same to assume that they're telling the truth when they assure us that they KNOW this is what God wants for them.

But in order to defend your position, you're willing to ignore their own statements about why they did what they did. They left tapes explaining their actions, you know. We don't have to guess.

[_harmony]

Every member of the Church is taught, counseled, advised, cajoled to study for themselves, ponder, pray, receive their own and in groups and finally get their own spiritual confirmation, We are told not to rely on any other person, but to have our own spiritual strength. If we are studying, pondering, listening, discussing, there is a great deal of critical thought going on.

Unless the conclusion that is reached is different from the accepted conclusion. Then all bets are off. Studying, pondering, listening, discussing are only valid if the conclusion reached is the same conclusion the leaders in SLC reached. We all know this is how it works.

The pioneers had not choice. Fanatics drove them from their homes in the winter. That is the difference between a faithful member and a fanatic.

Whoa. You're saying the mobs in Missouri were fanatics, instead of just people who were fed up with their Mormon neighbors? I'm not sure that's the official line. You might want to check your source on that one.

[_charity]

Every member of the Church is taught, counseled, advised, cajoled to study for themselves, ponder, pray, receive their own and in groups and finally get their own spiritual confirmation, We are told not to rely on any other person, but to have our own spiritual strength. If we are studying, pondering, listening, discussing, there is a great deal of critical thought going on.

Unless the conclusion that is reached is different from the accepted conclusion. Then all bets are off. Studying, pondering, listening, discussing are only valid if the conclusion reached is the same conclusion the leaders in SLC reached. We all know this is how it works.

Of course, there is only one conclusion. True is true. Would you go up to your math teacher and say, "Professor Jones, you know I studied this out, and I think that 2 + 3 = 7. So I don't care if my answer doesn't match yours. My answer is just as valid as yours." Huh?

The pioneers had not choice. Fanatics drove them from their homes in the winter. That is the difference between a faithful member and a fanatic.

Whoa. You're saying the mobs in Missouri were fanatics, instead of just people who were fed up with their Mormon neighbors? I'm not sure that's the official line. You might want to check your source on that one.

So you are sick of your neighbors? They go to church all the time. They are Republicans and you are Democrats. they are going to vote to make smoking in public illegal. They don't shop at the grocery store you own in the neighborhood but go 2 miles away to shop at a store owned by their friends. Just really obnoxious people and you are sick of them. So your husband rapes the wife and beats the husband up. You and your kids set fire to their house. But that's okay. You are just really sick of them.

[_charity]

And it is not possible for you to say anything about the nature of my "event(s)." You are like a male obstetrician telling his patient just about to deliver that he knows what she is going through. But it is possible for a woman who has gone through labor to tell another woman that she is having false labor.

Once again, it is impossible for you to KNOW what I've experienced or not experienced in terms of spiritual events. By definition, these events are completely internal and unmeasurable. You don't even know if other believers have experienced what you've experienced.

And you know this how? They came back from the grave and told you what they were thinking and "knowing?"

I know this because they told us why they did what they did before their deaths. Aren't they allowed to speak for themselves?

The Heaven Gaters were intelligent people who had, up to the time of their conversions, functioned very well in society. They weren't like raving schizophrenics hacking off their genitals. They just really, really believed in their own religious theology, which asked them to make extraordinary sacrifices (like their genitalia). They didn't even view their suicides as a sacrifice, they were just entering the next level.

When an otherwise sane human being is willing to castrate himself or to kill himself for his religious beliefs, it's same to assume that they're telling the truth when they assure us that they KNOW this is what God wants for them.

You assume that people tell the truth when they don't know what the truth is? David Berkowitz klled 6 people and wounded a bunch of others because his dog told him to do it. That's what he said. And that is the truth?

But in order to defend your position, you're willing to ignore their own statements about why they did what they did. They left tapes explaining their actions, you know. We don't have to guess.

We had the experience in Oregon of something like this. They didn't go quite to that extreme, but we had the Baghwan Shree Rajneesh here. Until their conversion, these people functioned very well in society. They weren't raving anythings. But they sold all they owned, gave the proceeds to the Baghwan, moved to central Oregon to live in dorms and hoe vegetables. They wore purple robes and every morning lined up along a gravelled county road to get a glimpse of the Baghwan as he drove by at 60 miiles an hour in the new Rolls Royce his followers provided him every year. None of them said God told them anything. They didn't even believe in God. They believed in the Baghwan's philosophy, which was that any kind of thought or belief system distracted a person from "enlightenment."

So how do you explain their change from very affluent lifestyles, to wearing shapeless purple clothing, living in poverty, and standing in clouds of dust to try to catch a glimpse of their "leader" as the high point of their day?

And people do extreme things without thinking that God told them to. One Chinese steward castrated himself and put the pieces in a saddlebag to send with his overseer on a long journey as proof that he would not try to dishonor the overseer's wife. God didn't tell him to do that either. People disfigure and maim themselves purely for cultural reasons. No god involved.

[_beastie]

I know people do extreme things without believing in God. But I'm talking about a specific group that clearly engaged in behavior because they felt it was the spiritual path they were meant to take. Of course the specifics of their beliefs about who or what god is is going to be different from yours, but that does not eliminate the fact that they felt spiritual certitude about their step. And this is just one example. The Islamic terrorists who kill themselves, as well as others, for Allah are obviously convinced that they're doing what Allah wants them to do, and they will be rewarded for it.

You assume that people tell the truth when they don't know what the truth is? David Berkowitz klled 6 people and wounded a bunch of others because his dog told him to do it. That's what he said. And that is the truth?

I'm not talking about what The Truth is. I'm talking about people's internal certitude that THEY know what The Truth is.

Fervency of conviction has nothing to do with accuracy of conviction, absent external validating evidence.

[_Abinadi's Fire]

Fervency of conviction has nothing to do with accuracy of conviction, absent external validating evidence.

Or even evidence to the contrary.

[_beastie]

Or even evidence to the contrary.

VERY true.

[_beastie]

Maybe this simple question will help.

Is it possible for a human being to be completely, utterly, 100% convinced that God told him/her something - and be wrong?