Conflicting Testimony

[_harmony]

I think most of the "everyone" aren't all that absolutely sure, but they say they are.

I suspect that all those Muslims out there aren't at all worried that you think they may have less than the truth. They are indeed absolutely sure they have it and we infidels don't. And they couldn't care less what we believe, especially what we believe about the light of Christ, since they know there is no such thing. And it's not like that a small number. Muslims far outnumber Mormons and the level of ignorance about Mormonism in the average Muslim is astounding.

[_truth dancer]

I wrote:

How is a test where everyone is sure they are passing but are indeed failing, and where there is no way to tell if one is getting it right or not, a "perfect test?"

Charity replied:

You keep making the false assumption that all those who are wrong (however you define wrong) have at their center the Light of Christ which is giving them cautions and warnings which they are choosing to ignore. They are defying their own scriptures to engage in the hurtful (sometimes that is too mild to describe what is happening) behaviors.

I'm not sure why you got the above impression. I am not making any such assumption at all.

It sounds to me like YOU are assuming everyone has the Light of Christ which is giving them cautions and warning but which are ignored. Just as you think others ignore scripture, most of the world thinks it is you that is misunderstanding, contorting and making up scripture.

You seem to be suggesting that those who truly "know" that they are following the Divine, doing the will of God/Allah but are clearly in conflict with the LDS church (as in my previous examples), really know they are out of line but due to ego issues etc can't admit it. Has it ever occurred to you that it may be YOU who is wrong? No, I doubt it, just as I doubt other True Believers have ever doubted they are mistaken.

Can you understand that there are billions of people who believe just as strongly that YOU are the one who is deceived? My point is not to concern yourself with what others think.. I know you do not care just as others do not care about the opinion of the LDS church.

My point is, it seems you cannot see that there is no way for anyone to know if they are "passing the test," unless you are going with the belief that everyone else is lying except for LDS; that the rest of the world really does know they are mistaken but can't admit it.

There is truly no difference between YOUR "knowing" and the "knowing" of billions of others on this planet.

As sure as you are that YOU are right, others are equally sure of their path.

As convinced as you are that YOU are the one with the real truth (fullness), so are others.

As clear as YOU are that others are influenced by Satan, others are equally sure it is YOU who is following the devil.

So again, seems God has created a test where everyone thinks they are passing and there is no way to tell if one is mistaken or getting some of the questions wrong.

~dancer~

[_charity]

TD, I think your real question is about fairness, not about who is right and who is wrong. I take this seirously.
You really want to know how can any judgement with eternal consequences be fair when ceriteria for the judgement is so widely misunderstood. Even to the pont where many different groups believe they are doing the right thing, even when it conflicts with what others believe just as strongly. And if there is no way for those individuals to know they might be wrong, then fairness goes out the window.

First, of all, any judgement will be fair, because the Judge knows everything. Most of all He knows the full intent of the heart of the individual being judged. He knows the extent to which that person was acting upon a firm conviction that he or she was doing the right thing. And if a person has the assurance for himself that he is right, it is the intent of the heart.

That sounds more than fair to me.

But the caveat is that the full intent of the heart is known. If the person is acting at all on any other basis, greed, lust, pride, etc., he knows it is there, no matter what the public face is, and he will be judged on that basis.

So it is possible to do the righ tthings for the right reasons. These are the sincere, honest in heart, who really KNOW.
It is also possible to do the right things for the wrong reasons. I suppose you could put cultural Mormons in this category.
It would be possible to do the wrong things for the right reasons. Paul was in this group, until he literally saw the light.
And then there is the group that does the wrong things for the wrong reasons.

While the fate of the two extreme groups is proably easy to see, I am just glad I don't have to judge the two middle groups.

I think this answers your real question.

P.S. I wasn't ignoring you. Saturday and Sunday were just really busy at my house.

[_truth dancer]

TD, I think your real question is about fairness, not about who is right and who is wrong. I take this seirously.
You really want to know how can any judgement with eternal consequences be fair when ceriteria for the judgement is so widely misunderstood. Even to the pont where many different groups believe they are doing the right thing, even when it conflicts with what others believe just as strongly. And if there is no way for those individuals to know they might be wrong, then fairness goes out the window.

Actually, I really was not worried about fairness or a final judgement at all.

My point was more about how humans can discover truth.

It seems, based on a religious mindset there is no way at all for humans to tell if they are "passing the test", or following the right spiritual leader, or embracing the correct religious text.

While most religionists believe their particular way is the right/proper/true/Godly way, it seems clear many are mistaken.

I personally do not think there is such a test, nor do I think there is a judgment as described by many Christians and LDSs regardless, I find it an odd plan where most of the world believes they "know" truth but no one can find a way to determine if they in fact are actually misled.

Oh well... I guess the idea that it doesn't really matter and God will judge is a way to work through it.

~dancer~

[_charity]

Actually, I really was not worried about fairness or a final judgement at all.

My point was more about how humans can discover truth.

It seems, based on a religious mindset there is no way at all for humans to tell if they are "passing the test", or following the right spiritual leader, or embracing the correct religious text.

While most religionists believe their particular way is the right/proper/true/Godly way, it seems clear many are mistaken.

I personally do not think there is such a test, nor do I think there is a judgment as described by many Christians and LDSs regardless, I find it an odd plan where most of the world believes they "know" truth but no one can find a way to determine if they in fact are actually misled.

Oh well... I guess the idea that it doesn't really matter and God will judge is a way to work through it.

~dancer~

Pardon me, if I keep mistaking your beliefs, but when I supply you with the answer to your question, you ignore it, and thus lead me to believe you are really asking something else.

I have told you repeatedly, the sourceof truth and the ability to discover more and more truth is built in. We have the light of Christ to tell us what truth is. When we obey it, we are given more truth. The person who experiences the confirmaiton of the Spirit, through the Light of Christ, and accepts it learns more truth. The person who denies that experience (whether through pride, greed, lust, etc.) lose the truth which they have.

Every individual has the responsability to yield to the Spirit. When they don't, and they know at the time they don't, they open themselves up to other influences.

[_truth dancer]

I have told you repeatedly, the sourceof truth and the ability to discover more and more truth is built in. We have the light of Christ to tell us what truth is. When we obey it, we are given more truth. The person who experiences the confirmaiton of the Spirit, through the Light of Christ, and accepts it learns more truth. The person who denies that experience (whether through pride, greed, lust, etc.) lose the truth which they have.

Yes, you keep repeating this but as I keep repeating, it does not answer the question or resolve the problem at all.

The question was.... given that billions of people "know" they have the real truth, truly believe they are doing the will of God, and are totally sure they are following the light of Christ/spirit/HG/whatever, how can anyone know if they are mistaken or not actually passing the test.

Telling me that everyone is given the light of Christ does not answer the question.

Earlier you wrote,

What do you want me to say about that?

I guess we will just have let God sort it out. He knows what a person really knows, deep down.

I took this to mean that there really is no answer but God will sort it out.

This is fine.

~dancer~

[_charity]

TD, I have just gone along with "billions of people know they are right" line. That really is not correct. Speaking of the world's population, a miniscule percentage have any kind of certainty that they are "right."

And I have explained that. IF there are any who are completely convinced they are right when they are wrong, God will take care of them.

Now, you can go back to your own form of denial.

[_truth dancer]

TD, I have just gone along with "billions of people know they are right" line. That really is not correct. Speaking of the world's population, a miniscule percentage have any kind of certainty that they are "right."

Do you really think that the billions of worshippers throughout the world believe they are wrong? Seriously? Looking at the world religions and faithful followers, I find it difficult to believe these devotees do not believe they are worshipping correctly. The world is filled with people who give/dedicate their lives to their beliefs, beliefs clearly in serious opposition to beliefs of the LDS church.

Regardless of numbers, the point remains the same.

And I have explained that. IF there are any who are completely convinced they are right when they are wrong, God will take care of them.

Yes, and this has nothing to do with my question. Again, you seems to be suggesting there is no way to tell if one is right or passing the test but God will take care of it. This is fine.

Now, you can go back to your own form of denial.

Denial of what? I asked a simple question for which there seems no known answer.

No problem.

~dancer~

[_charity]

TD, I have just gone along with "billions of people know they are right" line. That really is not correct. Speaking of the world's population, a miniscule percentage have any kind of certainty that they are "right."

Do you really think that the billions of worshippers throughout the world believe they are wrong? Seriously? Looking at the world religions and faithful followers, I find it difficult to believe these devotees do not believe they are worshipping correctly. The world is filled with people who give/dedicate their lives to their beliefs, beliefs clearly in serious opposition to beliefs of the LDS church.

Regardless of numbers, the point remains the same.

And I have explained that. IF there are any who are completely convinced they are right when they are wrong, God will take care of them.

Yes, and this has nothing to do with my question. Again, you seems to be suggesting there is no way to tell if one is right or passing the test but God will take care of it. This is fine.

Now, you can go back to your own form of denial.

Denial of what? I asked a simple question for which there seems no known answer.

No problem.

~dancer~

TD, I have seen you post very intelligently on the board. This is not one of your better efforts. I have repeatedly given you the answer. You close your eyes, cover your ears and go "la la la la la."

There is an answer. I have repeatedly told you. And if there are any small questions left over, we have to go to a higher authority. The fact that you don't want to acknowledge it, doesn't make it not true.

[_truth dancer]

TD, I have seen you post very intelligently on the board. This is not one of your better efforts. I have repeatedly given you the answer. You close your eyes, cover your ears and go "la la la la la."

I won't return your nastiness.

There is an answer. I have repeatedly told you. And if there are any small questions left over, we have to go to a higher authority. The fact that you don't want to acknowledge it, doesn't make it not true.

I acknowledge your response. I understand your belief that everyone has the light of Christ. I realize you believe God will judge.

I just disagree that your response answers my question.

I'll leave it at that.

~dancer~