Someone Explain Sam's Sig Line to Me

[_Paul Kemp]

I just don't understand why it's an us vs. them set up here. It doesn't have to be.

I think some theists take attacks on their faith as a personal attack, and then feel entitled to personally attack others. Then both sides end up feeling like the other started it, and we have what you see here.
Sorry, but Sam Harris has proven to be a dick (I'm talking about the poster, not the writer) and has shown she is only interested in scoring points. That's my problem. Usually it doesn't have to be us vs them. I rather it be us and them.

[_Seven]

I wonder if it has to do with "there are no atheists in foxholes" kind of thinking.

That atheists are only atheists until they need to turn to God. It's easy to be an atheist when you're sitting fat and happy, safe in your recliner watching TV. But as soon as life gets hard, a lot of atheists will call on God to help them. Or blame God for their misfortune.

That's exactly how I interpreted the sig line when I first saw it.

I took a look at the website and it's juvenile humor. His sig line is about the best one on it.

[_Sam Harris]

I have to agree with the statement about not blaming God for cancer when you don't believe in God, but I've seen too many atheists, remember, those people who don't believe in God, make statements to the effect of, "well, why didn't God do this?". Um, newsflash, you don't believe in God...so the question is moot.

Why is it a moot question? It's perfectly fine for Christians to profess their belief and question the beliefs of atheists with "well god DOESN'T exist how come...", but it's wrong if atheist do the same because they don't believe in god? Explain to me how that works, guy.

You obviously cannot read, because I stated my contempt for FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS right along with my blazing contempt for FUNDAMENTALIST ATHEISTS. I don't like it when Fundie Christians thump their bibles, either.

But I have to stop and think about what complete and utter jackasses fundamentalist atheists are, just like fundamentalist Christians. Both are so SURE their views are right, and they have little time, tolerance, or respect for differing opinioins.

This is really hilarious as all the "examples" of a "fundamentalist atheist" all involve the atheist making a rational, secular statement and then following it with a statement that would indicate they actually believe in god, which would make them not an atheist at all.

Also, can you establish what the fundamentals of atheism are so we can have an idea of what exactly a "fundamentalist atheist" is?

A fundamentalist atheist as a fool who thinks that only their view is correct, just like a fundamentalist Christian is a fool who thinks only their view is correct. Simple.

I thought that the parodies on the actual site I linked were funny. And a few of them make valid points about the ridiculous nature of rabid atheism, this belief that there is no God because things don't go the way you want them to.

To bad they go about making those points in irrational, illogical, and quite frankly dishonest ways.

Just like many atheist portray theists in irrational, illogical, and quite frankly dishonest ways?Oh my...

But I also separate God from RELIGION....something many fundie athiests cannot do, but their beliefs are in a way a religion.

Ok, how does that work? What is Christianity without god? Separating god from your religion would essentially render you a Sunday social club, as without God included in the deal then the entire belief structure has not reason for being. Seriously, don't believe me? Try reciting the Lord's Prayer without mentioning the Lord.

You're really simple. You can have spirituality without religion. Just because your worldview cannot function otherwise, doesn't mean that everyone else has to think like you. Some people who believe in God do not believe in Christianity. That is your myopic nature in play, not that of others.

They worship gods like Harris and Dawkins, and swear up and down that anyone who doesn't is already in a hell of their own making.

Can you name some people that actually deify Dr. Dawkins or Mr. Harris? I've read books written by both men, and far from worshiping them in anyway, I find that I agree with quite a few of their arguments and still remain critical of those arguments that I don't agree with.

That right there is to me the biggest difference between the rational secular mind and the irrational religious mind. I can accept criticism of the major works of my philosophy because I can find things to be critical of in them myself. The religious mind can't really do the same with their scriptures without undermining their entire system of belief.

People who deify dawkins and harris. One on this board. GOODK HE quotes them on his myspace page, it's quite cute.

Some of my favorite quotes from that website (and when Kemp graduates from high school, he can feel free to comment on the quality of someone else's website...until then stick to myspace, they lay it all out for you, hon):

Watch closely as I destroy the follow idiotic statements, folks...

LOL

Although you've memorized a half a dozen proofs that He doesn't exist, you still think you're God's gift to the ignorant masses.

This one is contradictory, as it starts with an "atheist" that has proofs that god doesn't exit and then claims that the same atheist thinks he is "god's gift", indicating that the "atheist" used in the statement really does believe in god. Which would make them, you know, NOT an atheist.

It's called irony. But that would go over your head, I understand.

You consistently deny the existence of God because you personally have never seen him but you reject out of hand personal testimony from theists who claim to have experienced God as a reality in their lives.

Denying the existence of something for which there is not actual evidence for is rational. Dismissing the claims of people who say they have seen something for which there is no evidence for is also rational. By this statement's logic, since I deny that Big Foot exists and deny the claims of people who say that Big Foot does exist, I am wrong for asking them to provide evidence of Big Foot.

Once again you show how slow you are. You're using your personal experiencs to Trump someone else's personal experiences, claiming it's ok because they used their personal experiences to try to Trump yours. Next!

You call a view held by less than ten percent of the American public "common sense".

Wow, right here we've got ourselves a real live appeal to popularity fallacy. Because the mob is always right, amirite? I mean, the majority has never been wrong about things like the world being flat, the universe being geocentric, or that black people are that color because they are descended from some guy mentioned in the Bible that killed his brother. All of those are examples of things that the majority of religious people of one denomination or another of Christian has held to be true until someone beat them about the head with evidence to the point where they could no longer deny that their previous views were false.

Like the old saying goes, common sense isn't common.

Nor is rabid insistence on everyone believing like you common sense. I read Harris' BS Letter to a Christian Nation, and I swear that book was nothing but assumptions about every Christian in this country! He talks like child Kemp and the others, as if he's spoken one-on-one with us all. He's completely ignorant.

You base your prejudice on the assumption that all theists are the same.

You're a spoiled fifteen year old boy who lives in the suburbs and you go into a chat room to declare that, "I know there is no God because no loving God would allow anyone to suffer as much as I...hold on. My cell phone's ringing."

Ad hominem much? So the atheist in this example is wrong because he's:

A. 15 years old.

B. lives in the suburbs.

C. stopped chatting long enough to answer their phone.

D. all of the above.

None of which actually addresses the premise that god doesn't exist, isn't loving if he does exist, and does allow people to suffer if he does exist, and instead attacks the person. And people wonder why I make fun of religious folk with the same irrational mindset as you appear to have.

Firstly, I have NO RESPECT WHATSOEVER for people who are demanding respect from theists for their beliefs while using the same tactics the fundamentalist they're fighting are using. I know that you have no white man sitting on a cloud to guide you, but use some ethics. You're the shining example, right? Then do not use the same tactics as fundie theists to push your arguments. Show the respect you want, wait a minute, that's the Golden Rule, based on theism. So never mind.

Secondly, when are folks like you going to understand that suffering comes from HUMANS...like you! I guess if there is a God, he needs to make all mankind robots who do right...except for you, you're rational, you wouldn't stand for such nonsense.

You contend that no war in history has ever been created by non-belief. Yet, when you are told that 176 million people lost their lives in wars during the last century, created by non-believers like Stalin, Lenin, Mao and Hitler, to name only a few, you reply that those wars fought were fought in the name of ideology and not 'atheism' as atheists "…don't fly planes into buildings or start wars."

Fun Facts!

Stalin was the leader of a nation that was attacked by another during the Second World War! So saying he created a war is pretty damned stupid, ain't it.[/quote]

Stalin killed religious folks. That's damned stupid. Can you explain why he chose to persecute the Russian Orthodox church?

Adolf Hitler was a devout Lutheran his entire life, even citing Martin Luther as being a great warrior, a true statesmen, and a great reformer, alongside Wagner and Frederick the Great in his book Mein Kampf. In fact, Christian influence can be seen through out the history of the national Socialist Party in everything from Lutheran influences on Nazi politics to the motto "Got mit uns" on the belt buckles of the Wehrmacht.

A devout Lutheran? Source.

Chairman Mao waged war against the Imperial Japanese who has invaded his country, so saying he started that war is pretty damned stupid too.



The only war Vladimir Lenin started played a part in starting was influencing the ideology of the Bolshevik movement that forced the abdication of Tsar Nicholas II, which had nothign to do with religious views at all.

I guess because they didn't come out and say that they were going to kill theists before they did it, it was ook.

How ever, if you want to tally up the body count of just Christianity since it's inception, I think you'll find the body count to be quite a bit higher then the 176 million you claim were killed by warfare in the 20th Century. If we add in other religions the numbers just go up from there. In any case, claiming that atheism or even secularism started wars is just as irrational as saying that religion caused all wars.

Typical fundamentalist atheist ignorance, the assumption that I think that any war under any ideology is ok. War in the name of God is just as bad as war without that premise. But you seem to think it's ok so long as God isn't involved. That's laudable.

Fundy atheists go on and on about how horrible all theists are, but they are just as bigoted as the people they condemn. That's my ultimate point. Set an example instead of running your mouths.

I could say the same to most any Christian I've ever met that keeps trying to tell me about their wonderful religion, yet fails utterly to provide an example by living up to the tenant of their faith.


TL;DR version: You're obviously butthurt about there being anyone that questions your faith. Get used to it learn to hold a rational dialogue with them instead of pulling out irrational ad hominems and appeals to popularity. Seriously, WTF is a "fundimental atheist" anyways?

Can you tell me what faith I am, asshat?

[_Sam Harris]

I have a tumor near my pituitary gland, a clot somewhere back there in the left side of my brain, grew up in horrific circumstances, could possibly die of a stroke bearing my child, not to mention other health problems that have arisen...

It's hard to feel bad for someone who can't type a post that doesn't trumpet how hard you've had it... Really, do you have to slip something that happened to you into every thread you comment on?

The straw man that people don't believe in god because "bad things" happen isn't getting you anywhere. I'd drop it if I were you.

Some of my favorite quotes from that website

Surprise!!!

(and when Kemp graduates from high school, he can feel free to comment on the quality of someone else's website...until then stick to myspace, they lay it all out for you, hon):

It makes it especially hard to feel bad for someone when they can't help from insulting others they don't know. Especially when they haven't even finished their online degree and tell others they should "go finish college" first. Even the University of Phoenix is too hard for some people, I guess. Hon.

Although you've memorized a half a dozen proofs that He doesn't exist, you still think you're God's gift to the ignorant masses. You consistently deny the existence of God because you personally have never seen him but you reject out of hand personal testimony from theists who claim to have experienced God as a reality in their lives.

I guess I shouldn't be surpised when we see narcissism in someone who thinks the Universe was created with them in mind, but man! Sam Harris is just too much. (ironic name, wouldn't you say! Maybe that's why she's so mad?)

You call a view held by less than ten percent of the American public "common sense".

Check your stats, hon.

For Kemp: You're a spoiled fifteen year old boy who lives in the suburbs and you go into a chat room to declare that, "I know there is no God because no loving God would allow anyone to suffer as much as I...hold on. My cell phone's ringing."

For that angry troll, Sam Harris:
No, I'm actually not any of the above. And is this a chat room? You are funny, whoever you are.

I'm glad you've taken up mind reading, is that an online course as well? Print out your post and read it in a couple of days. Let me know if it doesn't embarrass you to read what you've written.

The rest of your quotes are garbage, something to expect from that trash pile website for fundy christians. Hardly worth a response or the attention of a college graduate.

/indulging "sam harris" and her trollery

GoodK,

First of all, it's kind of sad that since you couldn't stand on your own under your old screen name, you had to put up this sock puppet/pretend friend to speak for you. Second, I outlast you here by years, so I am not a troll.

Thirdly, I can speak from my personal experience, because it Trump's your prejudice. I do it to show assholes like you that all theists are not the same. But you refuse to see such, because it deflates your arguments.

[_Sam Harris]

I wonder if it has to do with "there are no atheists in foxholes" kind of thinking.

That atheists are only atheists until they need to turn to God. It's easy to be an atheist when you're sitting fat and happy, safe in your recliner watching TV. But as soon as life gets hard, a lot of atheists will call on God to help them. Or blame God for their misfortune.

That's exactly how I interpreted the sig line when I first saw it.

I took a look at the website and it's juvenile humor. His sig line is about the best one on it.

Indeed it is juvenile humor, though there are some valid points, like human beings being responsible for world suffering, not GOD.

It's just as funny as that old website which I don't think is up anymore, called "Fundamentalists Anonymous". It poked fun at fundie Christians.

It's sad that one should take the atheist standpoint with the utmost of solemnity and sincerity, but many atheists just can't wrap it around their heads that just because you're a theist doesn't mean you hate, just because you're a theist doesn't mean you're ignorant, and just because you're a theist doesn't mean you're a fundamentalist.

[_Sam Harris]

I have a tumor near my pituitary gland, a clot somewhere back there in the left side of my brain, grew up in horrific circumstances, could possibly die of a stroke bearing my child, not to mention other health problems that have arisen...

It's hard to feel bad for someone who can't type a post that doesn't trumpet how hard you've had it... Really, do you have to slip something that happened to you into every thread you comment on?

Man, I missed that bit on my last go through...

Harris, answer me a question. Did you know about all of those medical conditions prior to trying to conceive a child? Because if the answer's yes, then I'd have to question your sense of responsibility. I mean, after all, what sort of rational and responsible person tries to conceive a child with medical conditions that can not only endanger their life (leaving the kid with one less parent), but also present problems with the child being born healthy or even long term medical effects for the child?

Angus, you're a neurologist? Wow, perhaps I should come to you for a second opinion. My neuro assured me I would give birth to a healthy child. I live with my mortality daily, but that doesn't mean I just KNOW I'm gonna die. You made an assumption to pump up your prejudice. I said I could die, but not that I would. NEXT!

Also, you say that you don't blame god for all of that.

No. I don't. And your point? I have a birth defect.

Does that mean that if you give birth to a healthy child and manage to do so surviving in good health yourself that you will give the credit to god?

I will focus on being happy that I made it through, thankful to whatever force there is out there that puts the goodness in life, and I'll be thinking about what to do first when I get home with my bundle of joy.

What about about the doctors, nurses, and medical science in general? After all, they were the ones that actually did the hard work.

More asshole assumptions. When I came out of the hospital last year, my doctors never stopped getting thanks from me. I love my neurologist, as he's kind, he cares about me as a person, and he has made my quality of living a great deal better. I thank him all the time. NEXT!!

Last time I checked, God wasn't an M.D. and didn't work in any hospital or private practice I'm aware of (though there is an old Med School joke about God. What's the difference between a Surgeon and God? God doesn't think he's a Surgeon.).

Last time I checked atheists didn't believe in God, but sure spent a lot of time talking about him/her/it/whatever.

So now, because I'm a theist who has health problems, I'm morally wrong for having a baby. Wow, the leaps and bounds we make. Such rationale! I thank you, Angus!

[_Sam Harris]

Ha, it's back up again. I referred to someone on another LDS board years ago as being in need of a fundamentalists anoymous group. You see, I can't stand arrogant fundie atheists, but I abhor arrogant fundie christians as well. That board was crawling with them, folks who were going on and on about how un-Christian Mormons were (I know, moot point to the enlightened, forgive me *bows*).

But this site is just as cute as the other. You see I don't really take you all (fundie atheists) any more seriously than I do the Bible thumpers. You're all amusing with your assumptions about people's personal lives and decisions.

http://www.geocities.com/church_of_hank ... ymous.html

[_Angus McAwesome]

I love the smell of butthurt in the morning... It smells like... LULZ...

I have to agree with the statement about not blaming God for cancer when you don't believe in God, but I've seen too many atheists, remember, those people who don't believe in God, make statements to the effect of, "well, why didn't God do this?". Um, newsflash, you don't believe in God...so the question is moot.

Why is it a moot question? It's perfectly fine for Christians to profess their belief and question the beliefs of atheists with "well god DOESN'T exist how come...", but it's wrong if atheist do the same because they don't believe in god? Explain to me how that works, guy.

You obviously cannot read, because I stated my contempt for FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS right along with my blazing contempt for FUNDAMENTALIST ATHEISTS. I don't like it when Fundie Christians thump their bibles, either.

Still does not explain why you consider the question to be moot. Also, you say you blame fundamentalist Christians, yet everything you said right there was specifically about atheists and some absurd notion that in order to criticize or question God you must first be a christian to do so.

Here's a hint, next time try answering my questions instead of being a petulant child.

A fundamentalist atheist as a fool who thinks that only their view is correct, just like a fundamentalist Christian is a fool who thinks only their view is correct. Simple.

So I guess you have no idea what the word "fundamentalist" means... I asked you to tell me what the fundamentals of atheism were, fool. That would help determine what a fundamental atheist is just as well as knowing the fundamentals of Christianity help determine what a fundamental christian is.

Just like many atheist portray theists in irrational, illogical, and quite frankly dishonest ways?Oh my...

Nice... So your brilliant rebuttle is "WAAAAAAAAAA... They're doing it too!"

But I also separate God from RELIGION....something many fundie athiests cannot do, but their beliefs are in a way a religion.

Ok, how does that work? What is Christianity without god? Separating god from your religion would essentially render you a Sunday social club, as without God included in the deal then the entire belief structure has not reason for being. Seriously, don't believe me? Try reciting the Lord's Prayer without mentioning the Lord.

You're really simple. You can have spirituality without religion. Just because your worldview cannot function otherwise, doesn't mean that everyone else has to think like you. Some people who believe in God do not believe in Christianity. That is your myopic nature in play, not that of others.[/quote]

So now you go from "separate religion from God" to "separate religion from spirituality" and continue to evade my questions.

Nice try, fool, but you won't be moving goal posts on my watch.

People who deify dawkins and harris. One on this board. GOODK HE quotes them on his myspace page, it's quite cute.

Have no idea who GoodK is, but I doubt he has an alter to Dr. Dawkins and Mr. Harris set up in his home that he performs rituals of worship before. But then, by your logic, since I often quote famous people or works of literature or movies or pop culture then I MUST worship them in order to do so.

Seriously, are you feeble?

LOL

Yeah, that was my reaction when I noticed you attempted to respond and failed utterly.

Although you've memorized a half a dozen proofs that He doesn't exist, you still think you're God's gift to the ignorant masses.

This one is contradictory, as it starts with an "atheist" that has proofs that god doesn't exit and then claims that the same atheist thinks he is "god's gift", indicating that the "atheist" used in the statement really does believe in god. Which would make them, you know, NOT an atheist.

It's called irony. But that would go over your head, I understand.

Way to miss the point, braintrust. How can someone be an atheist if they profess to be of God? Also, go find a dictionary and learn what the word "irony" means.

You consistently deny the existence of God because you personally have never seen him but you reject out of hand personal testimony from theists who claim to have experienced God as a reality in their lives.

Denying the existence of something for which there is not actual evidence for is rational. Dismissing the claims of people who say they have seen something for which there is no evidence for is also rational. By this statement's logic, since I deny that Big Foot exists and deny the claims of people who say that Big Foot does exist, I am wrong for asking them to provide evidence of Big Foot.

Once again you show how slow you are. You're using your personal experiencs to Trump someone else's personal experiences, claiming it's ok because they used their personal experiences to try to Trump yours. Next!

Wow, so asking for evidence for extraordinary claims in now an "anecdote"? Fact: There is no physical evidence for either God or Big Foot, therefore people who insist that either exist must provide evidence for it or else deal with people doubting their claims.

If you weren't such an obvious Fundamental Christian shill (who the hell are you trying to kid, girl), you might understand that.

You call a view held by less than ten percent of the American public "common sense".

Wow, right here we've got ourselves a real live appeal to popularity fallacy. Because the mob is always right, amirite? I mean, the majority has never been wrong about things like the world being flat, the universe being geocentric, or that black people are that color because they are descended from some guy mentioned in the Bible that killed his brother. All of those are examples of things that the majority of religious people of one denomination or another of Christian has held to be true until someone beat them about the head with evidence to the point where they could no longer deny that their previous views were false.

Like the old saying goes, common sense isn't common.

Nor is rabid insistence on everyone believing like you common sense. I read Harris' BS Letter to a Christian Nation, and I swear that book was nothing but assumptions about every Christian in this country! He talks like child Kemp and the others, as if he's spoken one-on-one with us all. He's completely ignorant.

Yes, because making a claim and then backing it with hard evidence (e.g. the world is round, the universe isn't geocentric, black people aren't black because of some ancient murder) is "rabid insistence".

Also, have you actually read Harris' "Letter to a Christian Nation" or did you just have selected quotes toss at you by your pastor shortly before taking his word that harris is an evil Atheist out to destroy the purity of poor persecuted Christians like a gullible, poorly educated, and obviously mentally unstable rube?

You base your prejudice on the assumption that all theists are the same.

Firstly, I have NO RESPECT WHATSOEVER for people who are demanding respect from theists for their beliefs while using the same tactics the fundamentalist they're fighting are using.

Which is precisely why you employ those exact same tactics yourself, right? Give it up, you're obviously a fundamentalist christian. Stop pretending to be otherwise.

I know that you have no white man sitting on a cloud to guide you, but use some ethics.

Yes, because the one thing my black ass needs is an invisible white guy living in the sky that only I can see or hear telling me what to do. Also, go buy a damned dictionary already. Seriously, you have no idea what half the word you use means. "use some ethics"...

I know I lol'd!

You're the shining example, right?

Never made the claim that I was. The entire time you've been the one simultaneously decrying those evil "fundamentalist" atheists while engaging in the EXACT SAME thing you accuse them of.

Then do not use the same tactics as fundie theists to push your arguments.

Pot/Kettle=Black, braintrust.

Show the respect you want, wait a minute, that's the Golden Rule, based on theism. So never mind.

Which is precisely why you've been tossing out moronic ad hominem after ridiculous emotional appeal all the time trying to insist that you're not a an overly defensive fundamentalist christian with massive amounts of butthurt over someone daring to commit the heinous crime of asking questions.

Also, since when is the Golden Rule an exclusively religious concept. By all means, provide some evidence for that claim.

Secondly, when are folks like you going to understand that suffering comes from HUMANS...like you!

Yup, it's all my fault. Suffering, death, cancer in grandmas, some guy running over your dog... It was all part of my master plan all along...

I guess if there is a God, he needs to make all mankind robots who do right...except for you, you're rational, you wouldn't stand for such nonsense.

Because free will, critical thinking, and asking questions are all so very evil, right?

I swear, if you projected any harder we could point you at a wall and view power point presentations.

Stalin killed religious folks. That's damned stupid. Can you explain why he chose to persecute the Russian Orthodox church?

Nice red herring, clown. Your idiotic quote said "176 million people lost their lives in wars during the last century, created by non-believers like Stalin, Lenin, Mao and Hitler". Name the war that Joseph Stalin started in order to kill religious folk.

You can't, because no such war exists, idiot.

A devout Lutheran? Source.

Hitler's father was a Lutheran, Hitler cited Martin Luther's "On Jews and their Lies" as well as mentioning Luther as a "great warrior and statesman". Seriously, did flunk out of junior high or was your school district truly that bad that this wasn't covered during freshman world history in high school? Deny it all you want, but Adolf Hitler and most of the National Socialist Part were Christians.

I guess because they didn't come out and say that they were going to kill theists before they did it, it was ook.

Once again, what wars did any of them start with the objective of killing "believers"? Name one.

Typical fundamentalist atheist ignorance, the assumption that I think that any war under any ideology is ok. War in the name of God is just as bad as war without that premise. But you seem to think it's ok so long as God isn't involved. That's laudable.

Nice, so instead of addressing my claims you pull an obvious and incredibly half-assed ad hominem by implying that I support war regardless of the reasons for them and therefore my point is invalid.

Can you tell me what faith I am, asshat?

You talk like a Fundamentalist Christian, act like a Fundamentalist Christian... For all I know you could come back and say you're a reformed druid, but your actions would still say otherwise, fool.

My neuro assured me I would give birth to a healthy child. I live with my mortality daily, but that doesn't mean I just KNOW I'm gonna die. You made an assumption to pump up your prejudice. I said I could die, but not that I would.

1. Why are you asking a neurology specialist about something that is obviously the area of specialization of an OB/GYN?

2. Where did I imply that you know your going to die?

3. Do you always respond to a question by being a butthurt juvenile idiot?

I will focus on being happy that I made it through, thankful to whatever force there is out there that puts the goodness in life, and I'll be thinking about what to do first when I get home with my bundle of joy.

What force other then the skill of the doctors and nurses and the sum of medical science would be involved in your giving birth to a healthy child despite all of your health problems?

Last time I checked atheists didn't believe in God, but sure spent a lot of time talking about him/her/it/whatever.

There you go again with that absurdity about having to believe in something in order to asking questions critical about it.

So now, because I'm a theist who has health problems, I'm morally wrong for having a baby.

Where did I say because you're a "theist" (quite bullshiting, you're a Fundamentalist) that you're irresponsible for having a baby with some many risk factors? Also where did I mention morality at all? I said "responsibility", clown.

When you're done being a pathologically dishonest attention whore and ready to have an actual discussion, come on back. Until then, take your butthurt and tell it to someone that gives a rats ass.

[_Sam Harris]

I think I'll keep my sig. :-)

[_Paul Kemp]

I think I'll keep my sig. :-)

It suits you well. :o)

It's been mildly amusing watching you unravel here. But no point in beating a dead horse any more.