Sam Harris on Sarah Palin

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_dartagnan
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Re: Sam Harris on Sarah Palin

Post by _dartagnan »

Note that Palin was "lucky."

LOL. You're such an idiot Trevor (and I mean this in a bantering kida way). This is like trying to mitigate Martin Luther King's service and efforts because he was just "lucky" that many issues of racial crimes had taken place during his lifetime.
Notice that included here is a crushing of dissent. Is that what I want in America?

You should, considering the fact that most of the dissent in Washington will be from politicians who want to keep things the way they are. They won't want lobbyist reform, earmark reform, etc. It keeps their pockets padded, so why would they? Only McCain andPalin have a chance of engaging the system without it consuming them as it has most others.
And she also left them knee-deep in debt.

She let her constituents decide what projects they wanted to pay for and she raised taxes accordingly, with their consent. It is deceiving to simply say she "left them in debt" and just leave it at that.
Figure of increase between 1996 and 2003 financial statements: $22,970,497 is what I saw claimed, but the statements for these years are not to be found on the Wasilla website where it is claimed that they were earlier retrieved. If this is true, it is astounding. For a village of 6000 people!

Admitting the fact that you have no earthly idea what you're talking about, and your figures could in fact be complete BS, you're perfectlyw illing to throw it out on the table as if a "figure" tells a story in itself. Again, you don't care about facts or truth. You're just regurgitating thinkprogress.com articles.

She missed campaign appearances.

ROFL! Now there's a criticism worth repeating huh? WOW. She missed campaign appearances. What stunning evidence of corruption and economic ignorance!
She was vague on the issues. Hmmm... sounds familiar.

Think critically for once Trevor. I know you can. \Teh article said she was accused ofbeing vague by her critics. That's different from saying she was.
In the meantime, she would take whatever earmark she could get

horse crap. She cut spending dramatically compared to the former governor, but I guess you wouldn't know this since you don't research the facts about those you attack. It is enough for you to see people "claim" things somewhere on the web.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_dartagnan
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Re: Sam Harris on Sarah Palin

Post by _dartagnan »

I've been meaning to write up an analysis of the debate from the other day. I'll be working on this over the next few days, time permitting.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Trevor
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Re: Sam Harris on Sarah Palin

Post by _Trevor »

dartagnan wrote:No way huh? Well that is a bold statement for someone without a shred of evidence that Alaskans' view of her has taken a nose dive.


Kevin is a prophet, and we should all trust his ability to divine the future.

dartagnan wrote:Nothing she does or did will ever be good enough. He simply doesn't like admitting having been wrong.


Which, in Kevin speak, means that if I do not buy the bill of goods he has, then surely I cannot be a reasonable person.

dartagnan wrote:Yes, "things" like fighting off corruption. Something none of her predecessors could do because they were just another part of the corrupt system. "Things" like cutting the budget by substantial margins every year.


Good for her for fighting corruption. This is something we can agree on without question. Whether her cuts were the right cuts and whether they will work in the long run is something that people who like evidence would want to wait to find out. For Kevin this is evidently an unqualified good without waiting for the second half to unfold.

dartagnan wrote:This requires research and critical thought and a half-way opened mind.


And I am sure that everyone on this board would agree with you when you claim that I lack all of those qualities. Go ahead, folks, chime in and tell Kevin that I do not research, I do not use critical thought, and I am known to be closed minded. Hell, I have conceded s**t to Droppy. I'm a bona fide rock-headed bastard. My voting record in presidential elections alone reveals me for the shameless, unquestioning ideologue that I am.

dartagnan wrote:Jason just directed my attention to your off topic thread where you, hilariously post a barage of anti-Palin proving once again, you don't know how to think for yourself. I suspect this is your "argument" you're referring to?


Gee, is that what it does? Prove that I can think for myself, or prove that I cannot? I think most reasonable folks will understand that it does neither. It proves that out in the open I collected articles that slam Palin, and I entitled the thread "Articles slamming Palin." My argument was that your statement concerning Palin's and Obama's relative credentials regarding the economy were stupid. Maybe you have forgotten that by now.

dartagnan wrote:Until thursday, I am limited to off the cuff rebuttals. I can't get to everyone at the same time, and most of these idiotic posts don't deserve responses anyway.


Most of your posts fit in this company quite well.

dartagnan wrote:"Leightweight" by what standard? Here is where Trev runs and hides his standard under his pillow. He won't tell us what it is because it makes his own choice in Obama embarrassingly hypocritical.


I gave you some standards. Maybe you were skimming too quickly to get them. My choice of Obama is a calculated risk. I prefer to have a better bench than a 72 year old man who has suffered malignant cancer and a half-term governor of a state with less than 1 million people. Some might call that good sense. The besotted conservative shill will overlook these problems and accuse anyone who refuses to do likewise lazy, ignorant, and partisan. Good luck, Kevin. Chuck Hagel is lazy, ignorant, and simply partisan in his opposition to the Palin pick. LOL.

dartagnan wrote:Again, he admits they are both "appallingly" inexperienced, but he would rather go with guaranteeing one in the White House instead of the other in the superfluous VP position.


Yes, Gore and Cheney were superfluous. Does that position hold up to any scrutiny? That is one of the most uninformed and patently ridiculous statements you have made. I can't choose which is worse, your grasp of the role of law in our system and the world system, or your claim that the vice-president is "superfluous." I guess if I were looking forward to Palin, I would hope the same.

There is a big difference between us, Kevin. I actually own up honestly to problems with my position. You prefer to play factual alchemy and transform s*** into gold.

dartagnan wrote:People like you who do not understand the need to for mavericks in an environment like Washington, simply have no business speaking on politics because you're a part of the problem, not the solution. Experience in Washington has hardly proved beneficial in the White House.


Viva la revolution!!! Kevin has wisely decided that when someone who calls himself a "maverick" runs for office, then this must be the best thing for the country. Yeah, this deserves to be taken seriously. Here is the maverick who has kissed so much a$$ in the past year that he has to carry the thousand briefers hanging off his lower lip in a wheelbarrow. He'll kiss anything that moves in the direction of the office he covets, even if it is the stuff he, in his "maverick" way, once repudiated, like the Christian Right. Wow. What a maverick.

This was the kind of "maverick" behavior that started to turn me off of McCain.

dartagnan wrote:Whenever I present evidence Biden is an ignoramus who doesn't even know his own Presidential running mate's poistions, and show that Obama can't even remember what the hell he voted on in the past, you get conspicuously silent.


Or maybe, just maybe, I am less concerned about these piddling claims than the prospect of dead president McCain and a very inexperienced president Palin in early 2009.

dartagnan wrote:Only to those who expect theatre. Reasonable Americans expect something much more from government officials. You expect flamboyance with academic credentials and a talent for speaking - those who retain debate trophies from high school.


Oh, I am pretty sure that few people are ignorant of the fact that the suspension of the McCain campaign was a thinly-veiled stunt to revive his flagging position in the polls. If you deny it, you will only look like a complete idiot. The evidence is out there for everyone to see.

By the way, you forget that I said McCain won the first debate. I thought he was much more eloquent than Obama, and that he put on a much better show. Frankly, he wiped the floor with Obama, who came off as a frightened, underprepared college lecturer. Since you are hellbent on portraying me as closed minded, contrary to a great deal of evidence on this board, past and present, you continue to neglect what I actually write. You only use what is convenient to you for wrenching and misusing to score points.

I eagerly await all of the evidence you bring here that changes my mind. Some people understand that I am open to evidence and good arguments. They know that I will acknowledge the truth when I am convinced I have found it. Do I seek their approval? No. But I am comfortable that their witness of my behavior would contradict your attempt to portray me inaccurately.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Trevor
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Re: Sam Harris on Sarah Palin

Post by _Trevor »

dartagnan wrote:LOL. You're such an idiot Trevor (and I mean this in a bantering kida way).


Hah! OK, Kevin. You stupid bastard (and I mean this in the best possible sense)!

dartagnan wrote:This is like trying to mitigate Martin Luther King's service and efforts because he was just "lucky" that many issues of racial crimes had taken place during his lifetime.


I don't think the word you are looking for is mitigate. I am also sure you aren't trying to compare the years of service and sacrifice of Martin Luther King with Palin. How you even connect these things is unclear to me. I am open to clarification.

dartagnan wrote:You should, considering the fact that most of the dissent in Washington will be from politicians who want to keep things the way they are. They won't want lobbyist reform, earmark reform, etc. It keeps their pockets padded, so why would they? Only McCain andPalin have a chance of engaging the system without it consuming them as it has most others.


And crushing dissent in a newspaper column is tantamount to all of these marvelous predictions of yours.

dartagnan wrote:Admitting the fact that you have no earthly idea what you're talking about, and your figures could in fact be complete BS, you're perfectlyw illing to throw it out on the table as if a "figure" tells a story in itself. Again, you don't care about facts or truth. You're just regurgitating thinkprogress.com articles.


So, when Palin shows integrity, Kevin wants to father her children. When I do it, I am an idiot. Excellent thinking, Kevin.

dartagnan wrote:ROFL! Now there's a criticism worth repeating huh? WOW. She missed campaign appearances. What stunning evidence of corruption and economic ignorance!


Again, Kevin likes to stick words in my mouth, because he values integrity and honesty so much!

dartagnan wrote:Think critically for once Trevor. I know you can. \the article said she was accused ofbeing vague by her critics. That's different from saying she was.


Let's see, you begin with the asinine claim that I never think critically, and then fail to note that her critics could be right. Interesting.

Too bad that she has proven to be practically incomprehensible (sans tele-prompter) so far in this campaign. Those who claim to care about evidence might add this to the tally. Those who are more concerned with celebrating Palin as a sort of Alaskan political messiah...

dartagnan wrote:horse crap. She cut spending dramatically compared to the former governor, but I guess you wouldn't know this since you don't research the facts about those you attack. It is enough for you to see people "claim" things somewhere on the web.


So, cutting spending out of the pockets of her own constituents equals refusing federal earmarks. Astounding reasoning. Do you see that this claim simply makes no sense? Are you capable of saying, "Gee, I was wrong about that!"?
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Trevor
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Re: Sam Harris on Sarah Palin

Post by _Trevor »

dartagnan wrote:Obama has been riding on his skin color from day one.


Eegads.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Some Schmo
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Re: Sam Harris on Sarah Palin

Post by _Some Schmo »

Trevor wrote: There is a big difference between us, Kevin. I actually own up honestly to problems with my position. You prefer to play factual alchemy and transform s*** into gold.

I understand and respect that you're not looking for my approval, Trevor, but I just have to say...

This is one of the most brilliant and accurate descriptions of a typical Kevin post that I've ever read on these boards. I LOLed in a big way. Well done.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Kevin shows us all that with folks like him, you can take the child out of apologetics, but you can't take the apologetics out of the child. His arguments on things like god, evolution, atheists, and now politics (not to mention debating itself) all demonstrate this notion in spades.

I really do admire the other former apologists who are more intellectually honest, and actually learned something from their experience, post Mormonism.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_dartagnan
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Re: Sam Harris on Sarah Palin

Post by _dartagnan »

Yes Gore and Cheney were superfluous.

Correct.
Does that position hold up to any scrutiny? That is one of the most uninformed and patently ridiculous statements you have made. I can't choose which is worse, your grasp of the role of law in our system and the world system, or your claim that the vice-president is "superfluous."

I was quoting Thomas Jefferson you idiot, but I guess you wouldn't know that. That goes for you too Schmo.

"Look at all the vice presidents in history.... They were about as useful as a cow's fifth teat."- Harry S Truman

"[Vice-President] is the most insignificant office that ever the invention of man contrived or his imagination conceived." - John Adams

"Superfluous excellency" - Thomas Jefferson.

According to Trev, these men are the "most uninformed" about American politics. Sigh. Talk about a "lightweight."

As I said before, you should really educate yourself on politics before contributing. You're stealing some of the crow I've been preparing for Analytics.
Kevin is a prophet, and we should all trust his ability to divine the future.

No, I simply require evidence before someone tells me that a person with an outrageously high approval rating, should serve at least two termns before one can reasonably deduce that her constituents like her and approve of her work. You invent this crazy reasoning from thin air, knowing perfectly well your own candidate has not finished his first term, even though he promised he would.
Which, in Kevin speak, means that if I do not buy the bill of goods he has, then surely I cannot be a reasonable person.

Not at all. You simply illustrate your premise that nothing she does is good enough. You do this with double-talk, like this for example:
Whether her cuts were the right cuts and whether they will work in the long run is something that people who like evidence would want to wait to find out. For Kevin this is evidently an unqualified good without waiting for the second half to unfold

So in Trevor logic, when Palin spends, she is "leaving" her constituents in debt, but she cuts spending dramatically, she is probably acting irresponsibly and only time will tell if her cuts were wise. This is just too rich! You even dissected an article bragging about her and tried to find things that counted as valid criticism! If I want to father her children, then you must want to drown them. All rhetoric aside, you cannot distance yourself from the obvious hypocritical position where you've firmly planted yourself.
And I am sure that everyone on this board would agree with you when you claim that I lack all of those qualities.

Not generally, but on the issue of politics your mind is slammed shut.
My voting record in presidential elections alone reveals me for the shameless, unquestioning ideologue that I am.

Aren't you the same guy who said he was going to vote for someone you believe isn't qualified to be President? You don't care about the issues.
My argument was that your statement concerning Palin's and Obama's relative credentials regarding the economy were stupid. Maybe you have forgotten that by now.

And your belligerent attitude on this is what got you in this mess, maybe you have forgotton that by now. The fact is you haven't even demonstrated that you even understand my argument. Neither does Analytics apparently. The simple fact of the matter is that Palin has managed an economy and the results were not mediocre, they were astounding. Obama has done nothing except talk about the economy, and he says whatever his economic advisors tell him to say. I asked you for evidence that Obama knows the eeconomy and you laughably, give me his JD at Harvard!
My choice of Obama is a calculated risk. I prefer to have a better bench than a 72 year old man who has suffered malignant cancer and a half-term governor of a state with less than 1 million people. Some might call that good sense.

Only if that analysis also considered the downside to choosing Obama. You're willing to abandon your own principles and move away from McCain just because he picked a religious woman. Just admit it. Your reasoning isn't sound, not if you acknowledge Obama's inexperience.
The besotted conservative shill will overlook these problems and accuse anyone who refuses to do likewise lazy, ignorant, and partisan. Good luck, Kevin. Chuck Hagel is lazy, ignorant, and simply partisan in his opposition to the Palin pick. LOL.

Again, start thinking for yourself and stop reading web blogs. Do I really need to point out the numerous, former Obama/Hillary supporters who are going with McCain-Palin?
I am pretty sure that few people are ignorant of the fact that the suspension of the McCain campaign was a thinly-veiled stunt to revive his flagging position in the polls. If you deny it, you will only look like a complete idiot. The evidence is out there for everyone to see

Except that between the two of us, I'm the only one who actually provides evidence. You simply allude to it "out there" somewhere. You're literally quoting Barny Frank, who called this a "stunt." Barney Frank Trevor! The same guy who insisted there was no crisis with FM/FM just two years ago.
According to Bob Schieffer speaking with the Early Show's Maggie Rodriguez
I am told, Maggie, that the way McCain got involved in this in the first place, the Treasury Secretary was briefing Republicans in the House yesterday, the Republican conference, asked how many were ready to support the bailout plan. Only four of them held up their hands. Paulson then called, according to my sources, Senator Lindsey Graham, who is very close to John McCain, and told him: you've got to get the people in the McCain campaign, you've got to convince John McCain to give these Republicans some political cover. If you don't do that, this whole bailout plan is going to fail. So that's how, McCain, apparently, became involved.

He has gotten what he wants, he's going to have this meeting, kind of a summit today with the president and Barack Obama. I'm told that the leaders of both parties are getting close to having some kind of a bill. The question, though, is whether rank-and-file Republicans, especially, are going to vote for this.


But this little factoid didn't appear anywhere in the liberal press, so you didn't hear about it.
By the way, you forget that I said McCain won the first debate. I thought he was much more eloquent than Obama, and that he put on a much better show. Frankly, he wiped the floor with Obama, who came off as a frightened, underprepared college lecturer.

So?
Since you are hellbent on portraying me as closed minded, contrary to a great deal of evidence on this board, past and present, you continue to neglect what I actually write. You only use what is convenient to you for wrenching and misusing to score points.

Score points with whom? I'm not the one calling for support from the crowd. I'm not here for a popularity contest.

I eagerly await all of the evidence you bring here that changes my mind.

You're too hellbent on demonizing Palin over every stupid thing. Until you rid yourself of that frame of mind, there is no chance of convincing you of much of anything.
Some people understand that I am open to evidence and good arguments. They know that I will acknowledge the truth when I am convinced I have found it. Do I seek their approval? No. But I am comfortable that their witness of my behavior would contradict your attempt to portray me inaccurately.

Yes, but you never admit being wrong after you've taken the dive into a heated argument, especially one where you've called your opponent idiot, stupid, moron, etc., all of which devolved from the initial "silly." Read over how all this started Trev.
So, cutting spending out of the pockets of her own constituents equals refusing federal earmarks. Astounding reasoning. Do you see that this claim simply makes no sense? Are you capable of saying, "Gee, I was wrong about that!"?

If I were. The fact is earmark requests were cut down as well. They went from over 700 million from her predecessor's term, to 500 million to under 250 million. Some reasonable people might consider that progress in spending cuts. But the spinsters will simply point out that last year she requested 250 million and then portray her as a hypocrite for saying she is against abusive spending!
This is one of the most brilliant and accurate descriptions of a typical Kevin post that I've ever read on these boards. I LOLed in a big way. Well done

The irony couldn't possibly be any thicker. All of this, based on Trev's ignorance of the phrase "superfluous excellency".
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_antishock8
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Re: Sam Harris on Sarah Palin

Post by _antishock8 »

Some Schmo wrote:
Trevor wrote: There is a big difference between us, Kevin. I actually own up honestly to problems with my position. You prefer to play factual alchemy and transform s*** into gold.

I understand and respect that you're not looking for my approval, Trevor, but I just have to say...

This is one of the most brilliant and accurate descriptions of a typical Kevin post that I've ever read on these boards. I LOLed in a big way. Well done.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Kevin shows us all that with folks like him, you can take the child out of apologetics, but you can't take the apologetics out of the child. His arguments on things like god, evolution, atheists, and now politics (not to mention debating itself) all demonstrate this notion in spades.

I really do admire the other former apologists who are more intellectually honest, and actually learned something from their experience, post Mormonism.


I'm going to have to disagree with you. I think Dart is doing a good job of backing up his points. His posts are substantive. I think the issue you two are having is he's 1) prone to calling people stupid/idiotic/moronic/etc... and 2) he's at odds, ideologically with you.

Remember, Dart and I are at odds on pretty much everything else, so I think I'm being pretty objective with my opinion... I recommend taking him to task on individuals points, and pushing him on the morality of his ideological position. See what happens..
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_The Dude
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Re: Sam Harris on Sarah Palin

Post by _The Dude »

Trevor wrote:An old man, who has had significant health problems, has chosen a lightweight to be his number two for the most important position in the world. Not only does this show questionable judgment, but if the man does get elected and dies, we will be stuck with his "maverick" experiment. Let him run his maverick stunts elsewhere, I say. We need soberness and responsibility, not people who sacrifice good sense to live up to their own campaign rhetoric. The McCain campaign at this point is little more than bad theater.


A Sarah Palin analysis from Fareed Zakaria:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/post ... lease.html

Couric asked her a smart question about the proposed $700 billion bailout of the American financial sector. It was designed to see if Palin understood that the problem in this crisis is that credit and liquidity in the financial system has dried up, and that that's why, in the estimation of Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson and Fed chairman Ben Bernanke, the government needs to step in to buy up Wall Street's most toxic liabilities. Here's the entire exchange:

COURIC: Why isn't it better, Governor Palin, to spend $700 billion helping middle-class families who are struggling with health care, housing, gas and groceries; allow them to spend more and put more money into the economy instead of helping these big financial institutions that played a role in creating this mess?

PALIN: That's why I say I, like every American I'm speaking with, were ill about this position that we have been put in where it is the taxpayers looking to bail out. But ultimately, what the bailout does is help those who are concerned about the health-care reform that is needed to help shore up our economy, helping the--it's got to be all about job creation, too, shoring up our economy and putting it back on the right track. So health-care reform and reducing taxes and reining in spending has got to accompany tax reductions and tax relief for Americans. And trade, we've got to see trade as opportunity, not as a competitive, scary thing. But one in five jobs being created in the trade sector today, we've got to look at that as more opportunity. All those things under the umbrella of job creation. This bailout is a part of that.

This is nonsense--a vapid emptying out of every catchphrase about economics that came into her head.


Come on, Fareed, it probably makes tons of sense to Kevin.
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
_Analytics
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Re: Sam Harris on Sarah Palin

Post by _Analytics »

Dart wrote:
Reuters/Zogby: "Half of all voters said the economy was the top issue, and the poll showed McCain narrowly led Obama on the question of which candidate could best manage the economy by 47 percent to 45 percent. But that was a significant gain for Obama from McCain's 9-point advantage last month. The poll was taken before Sunday's upheaval on Wall Street with the fall of Lehman Brothers Holding and the sale of Merrill Lynch."

Gallup: "In the Sept. 5-7 USA Today/Gallup poll, 48% of Americans say Barack Obama can better handle the economy, while 45% choose John McCain. This marks a significant gain by McCain; just before the Democratic National Convention in late August, Obama had a 16-point margin over McCain on the economy."


What a bunch of Marxists!


Here is an example of how conservatives respond to these types of polls...

Presidents Can't Manage the Economy
Candidates Should Promise to Keep Their Hands off the Economy
Opinion by JOHN STOSSEL

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=4316776&page=1

The presidential candidates have been repeatedly asked how they would "manage the economy." With the exception of Ron Paul, every candidate has accepted the premise that this is something the president of the United States should do.

Or can do.

Nonsense.

Democrats act like the president is a national economic manager. Republicans pay lip service to free markets, tax and spending cuts and less regulation — before proposing big programs to achieve "energy independence," job training and a cooler climate....

Politicians who talk about managing the economy ignore the fact that, strictly speaking, there is no economy. There are only people producing, buying and selling goods and services. Keep that in mind, and one realizes that government action more often than not interferes with the productive activities that benefit everyone. When politicians propose regulations to fix some problem, they should ask if some earlier intervention created the problem and if the new regulations will make things worse. The answer to both questions is usually yes.

The economy is far too complex for any president — no matter how smart — to manage. How can politicians and bureaucrats possibly know what hundreds of millions of individuals know, want and aspire to? How can government employees fathom what trade-offs to make in a world of scarce resources?

They can't. That's why free people are more prosperous than unfree people.

Presidential candidates should promise to keep their hands off the economy.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari
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