Anachronism of Thee and Thou in Prayer

[_moksha]

What perpetuates this anachronism of Mormons using thee and thou in prayer?



???

[_ludwigm]

What perpetuates this anachronism of Mormons using thee and thou in prayer?
???

While You are trying to answer, please think about the next questions:

How to translate them to many ( ~170 )different language? With or without U&T?
(For example, there is no usable equivalent in hungarian, even we - maybe - can understand the difference. And - maybe - we can pray without prophets, seers and revelators, not to forget translators according to D&C 21:1 107:92 124:125.)

[_The Nehor]

In English it was the strongest familiar implying intimacy and familiarity. It is also the language we use in the scriptures. It is still used in translating many ancient documents. I think it's a good idea to use. If you understand the words then they convey a sense of intimacy and closeness and also a sense of timelessness. If another language does not have a similar usage oh well. The 'thee' and 'thou' are aides to the one praying not some demanded due from God. If they get in the way of your prayers I recommend throwing them out. I find them to be a huge help.

[_ludwigm]

In English it was the strongest familiar implying intimacy and familiarity. It is also the language we use in the scriptures. It is still used in translating many ancient documents. I think it's a good idea to use. If you understand the words then they convey a sense of intimacy and closeness and also a sense of timelessness. If another language does not have a similar usage oh well. The 'thee' and 'thou' are aides to the one praying not some demanded due from God. If they get in the way of your prayers I recommend throwing them out. I find them to be a huge help.

You must think it is.
It was commanded by one of Your prophets, seers and revelators (and translators), DHO.

But ... he has forgotten to translate it to Hungarian and to

Armenian Indonesian Czech Danish German Navajo Spanish Estonian French Samoan Hiligaynon Hmong
Croatian Icelandic Ilokano Italian Kiribati Haitian Tongan Lithuanian Dutch Norwegian Polish Portuguese
Tahitian Romanian Slovak Slovenian Finnish Swedish Tagalog Vietnamese Fijian Greek Bulgarian Mongolian
Russian Ukrainian Thai Laotian Cambodian Mandarin Cantonese Japanese Korean Malagasy Kuna
Farsi Burmese Turkish Yoruba Lingala Igbo Efik Yapese Swahili Tamil Arabic ((DCP !!!)) Kosraean
Pohnpeian Palauan Chuukese Telugu Sinhala Urdu Twi Fante Quichua Quechua Aymara Papiamento
Quiche Kekchi Hindi Cebuano Guarani Marshallese Portuguese Albanian Serbian

(from http://www.LDS.org/languages/0,5241,61,00.html)

Ps. ... and to reformed egyptian.
-------------------

Why do You think english is the language of the chosen people living in a chosen land?
Why do DHO think it is?
What about Israel (the country)? The jews (the people)? The hebrew (the language)?

Ps. (again)
Is DHO a linguist? Do he speak any language but english? Isn't he a retired lawyer?

[_bcspace]

What perpetuates this anachronism of Mormons using thee and thou in prayer?

An attitude of respect to God. We make the effort of making the references to Him a little more unique.

[_Danna]

A very odd custom. More especially is 'thou' is a singular pronoun, when in most languages which have the distinction, the plural is the formal form (e.g. in German). What terms are used in the German Book of Mormon - does anybody know.

What I find funny is this from wikipedia:

Many dialects have compensated for the lack of a singular-plural distinction caused by the disappearance of thou through the creation of new plural pronouns or pronominal constructions, such as y'all, yinz, youse, you lot, and you guys.

I must try that next time I go home: "D.H.F., we thank youse for this food which y'all have provided..."

[_Scottie]

When I was TBM, my thinking was along the lines that we were supposed to get to know God and Jesus. That they were supposed to be my best friends, the friends that I told everything to and listened to everything they said.

Well, who uses thee and thou when talking to your best friends? In private, I prayed as if I were having a conversation with God and used 'you' instead of 'thee'. I still tried to maintain respect, but also tried to make it more personal.

Of course, in public, it would be weird not to pray in Mormon-speak, so I still used the standard prayers.

[_ludwigm]

...
standard prayers.

Is Matthew 6 : 9-13 valid? Wasn't it refuted by current or dead prophets?
Or was it translated incorrectly? (Don't forget, Joseph Smith has changed Matt 6:14 to make
less sense ... )

During my six year as active investigator I have heard it only once in the ward.
At the time, it was said by me. Without Joseph Smith' inspiration.

Nota bene

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

[_h2001st]

"Thou" is the subject (nominitive) of the sentence, meaning "you."
"Thee" is the direct object "you" (accusative) and also dative (indirect object- motion towards or around, or state of being) of the sentence, meaning "to you", "from you," "by you" etc.

Danna-
In German (familiar), "du" is the "thou", "dich" is the accusative "thee" and "dir" is the dative "to thee" "for thee" "from thee" etc.

In Eng. I can't remember which prepositions go with accusative and dative.- but it really doesn't matter because we always say "you"- there is no declination on the noun (no ending according to case).

but there is a list of prepositions in German when to use acc. or dative.

[_hobart]

I was quite confused when I learned that thee and thou were archaic familiar forms of the 2nd person singular pronoun. It seemed always to me to connote respect and humility to a person who wasn't your buddy. While historical usage notes this, it seems to be the opposite in today's usage of the words. You just seems a little too personal for Mormons--which concentrate on reverent acts, like quiet veneration in the chapels (notwithstanding screaming children) and traditional hymns. McConkie once made a big deal of not developing a "personal relationship" with diety. Can you imagine a LDS praying "God you are awesome"? It would be more like "Thou art mine Father in Heaven, and I humbly submit to Thine awe-inspiring Glory."

I believe most Protestant Christian organizations were using thee and thou to refer to God in Joseph Smith's day. "How Great Thou Art" is a classic Christian hymn that I would hear in the non-denominational Christian church I went to for awhile--along most other contemporary Christian songs that use you in praise of God. I would make the argument that thee and thou were written down in the first English Book of Mormon because King James-sounding/archaic English was often used in those days for religious purposes (most people having the KJV Bible). This can also This can also be evidence for why words like the French adieu are found in there as well--because it was part of the common vernacular for spiritual/religious and poetic contexts (and that argument can be harmonious of whether one believes the Book of Mormon was divinely translated or a production of Joseph Smith's own mind).

Even in this day and age, I have been reading recently-translated (ancient) texts of all religious traditions, and there is a high incidence for translators to choose thee, thou, and its archaic verb conjugations. Why? Because it connotes and stirs to mind feelings of artistic praise. If you read the Book of Mormon, it really is poetic and structure din a way that often beats around the bush to make statements--something I find, at times, very annoying. But that is what happens in religion. With the possible exception of LDS meeting houses, worship often involves artistic and extravagant expressions of religious ideas and worship. This shouldn't be too big a surprise.

But, in direct response to the question "What perpetuates this anachronism of Mormons using thee and thou in prayer?" I would say that mostly it is cultural tradition. As well, the Book of Mormon and KJV Bible's wording probably perpetuates it. You might find in wards where the membership is "newer," there are practices that reflect old habits of converts: using you as well as *gasp* not wearing their "Sunday best." There doesn't seem to be any direct commandments of official status for this, but it is probably something that everyone just does to fit in and because they always have. When I was baptized, I started using thee and thou and wore white shirts to church (contrary to my liberal Protestant upbringing) so I didn't stick out like a sore thumb. I did bring a NIV Bible to church once, and got a few surprised comments on it.

Can someone who is proficient in a foreign language tell me how the Book of Mormon in that language is different or similar to the colloquial use of speech among modern native speakers? Ludwigm, what pronouns are used in your Book of Mormon? Are they the same as used when speaking to friends?