addressing the unknown

[_ajax18]

Whether it's true or not, who could not contend that the promises made by religion, even the ones made to the less obedient are very comfort compared to the reality of death, even the reality of a life filled with unnecessary suffering. Meaning and comfort, that's what made reiligion grow in my view.

What I'm struggling to see from my somewhat limited perspective is why we don't have any more new doctrine learned in church. We could all wish upon the power and comfort of resurrected body. Thought likes this raise my spirits. I don't see where it increases the Brethrens liability in prophecy since most off all these things won't be figured out till the next life, and obviously nobody will be called on it if it's a fraud. So why don't we talk more about the glories of heavan. Thos balms and opiates over my mind could make me whole like never before. In one way, my death and nihilism bothers me enough that believing that I'll never live again is strong enough a force to push me to look past the irrationality. The thing I just wanted to have but never could, immortality.

Yet how often do we talk of death, what happens after death, etc in church. We talk about living Christlike lives and that's pretty much it. No more new details on the construction and planning of Celestial or my Terrestrial townhouse.

I remain impressed with our Roger on his ability to come to grips with death and maintain many of the benefits that I needed the afterlife to get. I know Roger was a long time member and in leadership. Roger did you begin to find your peace with death in what I'd call nonMormon methods. Is this something that pervades the minds of leaders in that many have recongized that the resurrection was just a story and we need develop a group of selfless people who don't mind the Church making their life worse because the ultimate good that we are striving for is the good of the Church/Kingdom, not the ultimate good of the individual. Now, the after life could solve the problems a religion that demands selflness causes individual happiness, but they don't even resort to that much. How many LDS are serving actively, even the high priesthood leadership as I believe Roger once was are shying away from a focus of glory in the life to come. Funerals are more sad than I think LDS funerals should be. The gospel seemed to heal those wounds so well (not that my family members dying didn't hurt but my religion was very comforting.)

Roger I remain impressed with you seeming to cling to Christian values even though you limit them the only world that exists, right here. Take away eternity Chrisit's mythical real kingdom of the next world and one has to wonder why Jesus didn't mind getting himself killed in an effort to change the rules in Judaism, that in the end basically didn't work. Take away a final accounting and I can't help but say the gospel is mistaken, mild selfishness will produce way more happiness than activie selflessness ever did. At least thant's been my experience. Oh you degereate selfish fiend! You say. I'm not the oddball on this one. Watching the way people live everyday and how they feel about it confirms my statement many times over.

Point being after my disorganized ramble. It wouldn't be hard to make up some revelations on the afterlife that are just as impossible to verify will happen or not. But the stories could provide a psychological strength that would rival any Chinese opiate. And in spite of the argments made to the contrary, people can be evil even with beliefs trying to help them, but in general beliefs help make people better, especially from the Church's perspective. Is it possible that a lot of the upper echelon leaders don't really believe in an afterlife so much either, and are just slowly moving us towards a world without a resurrection? Did the brethren all just honestly they receive no new revelations.

It seems like you could spice church up so much by getting back to the original reasons people turned to religion (fear of death, lack of meaning in life and suffering). So many of these problems have solutions waiting in the next life, but our leaders seem so reluctant to talk about the next life. Are they moving us to a new age where we admit that the next life never really happened?

[_harmony]

Funerals are sad because BKP decided that they were not to be a mechanism to honor the dead person, but to honor the church instead. It was one of his more bone-headed talks.

We don't talk about the afterlife because correlation and centralization closed the heavens. So we're left with the words of long dead prophets that have limited if any relevance to life today, the advice of men what are trying hard but falling far short, and the stupidity of women like the YW general president.

We get what we pay for.

[_moksha]

The idea that something pleasant awaits us after death, is indeed comforting.

--------

To add to what Harmony said, funerals are to aid the grieving of the mourners and have them come to grips with their loss. They can include a joyful wake or a profound sadness or both. What BPK said was wrong. Funerals are no place to proselytize those who came to mourn.

[_ludwigm]

The idea that something pleasant awaits us after death, is indeed comforting.
...

Do You think about the seventy seven virgin? Who remain virgin after .. ahem .. that?

[_moksha]

The idea that something pleasant awaits us after death, is indeed comforting.
...

Do You think about the seventy seven virgin? Who remain virgin after .. ahem .. that?

Who remain virgins? Hmmm, that is some neat trick. 77...wow...!

[_Inconceivable]

Ajax, excellent points to ponder.

I've been here a while so this isn't the first time I've mentioned this:

I looked around to see if anyone had been to the other side and come back (remember the old saying, "nobody comes back" - well evidently many people have returned). Mormon prophets have been told what the afterlife is like, supposedly by God or His angels. But, as you know, I don't trust them anymore. Particularly the ones that gave the most information about it.

I've read several very informative books. One of which is Lessons from the Light by Kenneth Ring. I'm convinced that, at very least, our spirit does not die and meaningful and loving relationships continue. Those that return from death, regardless of their culture, geographical location, denomination/spirituallity - most return emulating a refreshing and hopeful outlook upon their life here and beyond. I find most NDE's a comfort to read.

Mormonism just becomes another distraction from the essence of why we are here, it seems. I thought life within Mormonism (as a TBM) was full of color and life. As I distance myself from the church, now that I'm outside looking in, I'm surprised that it appears more as hues of gray.

Worth looking into (NDE's). I believe Ray A has done some studying as well.

inc.

[_ajax18]

We don't talk about the afterlife because correlation and centralization closed the heavens.

Are you referring to mainstreaming? Or are you saying that it'd be hard to pass a new doctrine because it requires more people to agree now? Or are they just concerned about what how people outside the church would react?

We get what we pay for.

Considering the price of tithing, I'm starting to think I get a lot less than I pay for.

The seventy virgins deal takes advantage of quite possibly one of the strongest forces in any species, the male sex drive. The Church used to give anectdotal stories to comfort mothers who lost children (such as getting the chance to raise them in the millenium). A mothers love for a child is probably the strongest motivation in the world. I could see where the families are forever would be very comforting to that desire. As for me, I find the basic reciprocity experienced in NDEs very comforting/motivating as well. To me those make a lot of sense.

[_ajax18]

Inconceivable,

It's interesting that I never really was fearful for adhering to Mormonism 99% of the time. The impression I've gotten from NDE books is that it doesn't matter where you go to church, but it does matter that you go. (I'd loosely interpret that to hanging onto an eternal perspective.)

Most of the beauty and peace I get from religion is that I don't feel like I have to be happy right now. Paradoxically, this settles me down and makes me happier often times. Sometimes I'm convinced it doesn't matter what you do, times are just bad.

Arguments that it is good for the individual to practice Christian principles all the time knowing that the Resurrection was just a part of the mythology remain unsatisfactory to me, and probably always will. Good for the human race? I'm not convinced of that either. Even baboons have found ways drive the unethical ones out of their troupe at some point. Whether we should be or not, most primates just aren't strong enough to live a higher level of morality than those we interact with are willing to live. It doesn't take many bad ones create chaos, but it sure takes a lot of good babboons to reform a bad one. Entropy.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Ajax,

Whether it's true or not, who could not contend that the promises made by religion, even the ones made to the less obedient are very comfort compared to the reality of death, even the reality of a life filled with unnecessary suffering. Meaning and comfort, that's what made reiligion grow in my view.

Well, I disagree with you on this. :-)

I believe the LDS version of the afterlife is about as horrific as it gets, for some of us anyway.

First, as a child convert I believed I would be in heaven (I was as obedient as I could possible be), without any of my family.

This is a horrible teaching for a child to believe. For much of my childhood I had fears of heaven, being alone, without my parents and siblings.

I had a close call with death as a college student and spent months facing the possible ending of my life. The fear of heaven was one of the most difficult of all my challenges at the time. I had NO sense of hoping to be in heaven, but only extreme fear and anxiety about being in any kingdom. It all seemed so terrible and cruel. I tried to have faith that it would all work out, still when one faces death so forcefully it is difficult to not worry about such a horrible place.

Something is just so very wrong with the LDS picture of heaven for all but the most obedient men (and women who do not like men) who have all their family members and friends strong in the LDS church.

You speak of the 70 virgins so lets address the multiple women and girls for the LDS men... for women the LDS heaven is pretty cruel. (I have heard first hand from an Imam that women get virgins as well... smile).

Living in a harem, procreating for eternity, being some sort of submissive, non-entity to her husband who is sleeping around with all the other girls and women, isn't exactly heaven for many vibrant, passionate, and healthy women.

Guys get all the comfort, sex, whatever they want while a woman is left with NOTHING.... ya know? ;-)

For me, I have such a deep abiding peace about death now that I no longer have to deal with the LDS version of the after life.

I don't know what is next if anything but the horrors of the LDS heaven are no longer there to fear.

I can't even descirbe the peace I feel having let go of the belief in the LDS heaven. I have no fear of death.

~td~

[_Ray A]

This is a poem from a person who had a near death experience, and all they have really been able to do is convey words and emotions to explain what for them is indescribable:

MY TRUE HOME by Andy Harley

Drawn into tangible darkness,
Rushing high speed through a tunnel.
I’m somewhere between two worlds
Spiraling like water through a funnel.

I see a pinpoint of light in the distance,
Growing larger the closer I get.
But for some strange reason I’m not afraid?
And see it not as being a threat.

Entering into a realm so soothing
Of radiant, golden-white light,
Peace and warmth pours over my spirit,
It’s so beautifully – beautifully bright.

Moving with the flow of fine silk,
My translucent body glows;
Like thousands of tiny diamonds
They sparkle and superimpose.

A floodgate of knowledge has been opened,
With infinite waves of love;
There’s a pageantry of dramatic colors here
That just could never be dreamed of?

I see miraculous mountains of deep blue velvet
And spectacular valleys galore;
A waterfall dazzles with clarity and life,
This Elysian area I’d love to explore!

Drifting next into a garden,
With swaying grass so crisp, cool, and green;
The luminescent flowers pulsate,
Their shades so completely serene;

I hear music playing of harmonic beauty
That rolls like a glassy river.
Enchanting, mystical tones,
That would make any man alive shiver.

Then suddenly, I see someone in the distance,
Coming towards me to reunite.
This whistling persons emanating glow,
Is such a comforting and glorious sight?

When I can finally distinguish who it is,
I realize it’s my Grandpap Jack.
He tells me that it’s not yet my time,
And that I must now . . . go back.

I could stay an eternity at this divine place
From just these few things that I’ve been shown;
But I know one great day for sure I’ll be back,
Because I believe this is my true home.