Warren Buffet the Marxist

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_bcspace
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Re: Warren Buffet the Marxist

Post by _bcspace »

If you are so naïve that you think the Laffer-curve theory is proven then you can criticize Obama for not buying into it


"It seems difficult for some to understand that high rates of taxation do not necessarily mean large revenue to the Government, and that more revenue may often be obtained by lower rates." Exercising his understanding that "73% of nothing is nothing" he pushed for the reduction of the top income tax bracket from 73% to an eventual 24% (as well as tax breaks for lower brackets). Personal income-tax receipts rose from $719 million in 1921 to over $1 billion in 1929, which supporters attribute to the rate cut. Secretary of Treasury Andrew Mellon in 1924, Folsom Jr., Burton W., "The Myth of the Robber Barons", page 103. Young America's Foundation, 2007.

Laffer, in an article published at the Heritage Foundation, has pointed to Russia and the Baltic states who have recently instituted a flat tax with rates lower than 35%, and whose economies started growing soon after implementation. He has also referred to the economic success following the Kemp-Roth tax act, the Kennedy tax cuts, the 1920s tax cuts, and the changes in US capital gains tax structure in 1997 as examples of how tax cuts can cause the economy to grow and thus increase tax revenue. Wikipedia retreiving from Laffer, A. (June 1, 2004). The Laffer Curve, Past, Present and Future.

etc. etc.
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_Analytics
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Re: Warren Buffet the Marxist

Post by _Analytics »

dartagnan wrote:What the hell else could he be referring to if not the notion that some people have too much and others have too little?

What he says here is entirely consistent with the Warren Buffet's views on taxation which I described at the top. That is what he is referring to. You don't have to agree with it. But it would behoove you to at least ackowledge that that is his position.

dartagnan wrote:I'm not naïve, I simply understand what history has taught us. Increasing capital gains tax will result in lower revenues.

That is an extraordinarily simplistic and dubious assertion. Accepting it as fact proves you are naïve.
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_dartagnan
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Re: Warren Buffet the Marxist

Post by _dartagnan »

What he says here is entirely consistent with the Warren Buffet's views on taxation which I described at the top.

Sure it is consistent, but many things are "consistent" with one another while remaining distinct. You are naïvely arguing for an equation here. Buffet's view is not identical to Obama's but you're conflating the two as if they were.
It seems the only thing they have in common on taxes is that they both think the rate should be raised on the rich. Big deal. That alone doesn't justify the claim that they are both Marxists. Obama sets himself apart from the rest because he wants to "spread the wealth" around. If Buffet wanted to do this, then he very well could. If he wanted to "give back" to so many poor, then why isn't he writing thousands of personal checks to them? He certainly could afford it.
That is what he is referring to. You don't have to agree with it. But it would behoove you to at least ackowledge that that is his position.

Buffet thinks rich should pay more taxes. That's the extent of their agreement.
That is an extraordinarily simplistic and dubious assertion. Accepting it as fact proves you are naïve.

Well, prove me wrong. It is easy to sit there and pretend that raising CG tax will increase revenue, but it is another thing to actually support it. I asked you if you could provide a single example when an increased CG tax resulted in increased revenues. Now I understand why you didn't answer it. It is easier to call me naïve and pretend Obama has a clue on what he's talking about, than it is to support an untenable position.
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Re: Warren Buffet the Marxist

Post by _asbestosman »

dartagnan wrote:Obama sets himself apart from the rest because he wants to "spread the wealth" around. If Buffet wanted to do this, then he very well could. If he wanted to "give back" to so many poor, then why isn't he writing thousands of personal checks to them? He certainly could afford it.

Buffet is donating the majority of his wealth to the Gates foundation which does give the money back to the poor in various forms.
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_Who Knows
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Re: Warren Buffet the Marxist

Post by _Who Knows »

asbestosman wrote:
dartagnan wrote:Obama sets himself apart from the rest because he wants to "spread the wealth" around. If Buffet wanted to do this, then he very well could. If he wanted to "give back" to so many poor, then why isn't he writing thousands of personal checks to them? He certainly could afford it.

Buffet is donating the majority of his wealth to the Gates foundation which does give the money back to the poor in various forms.


Save your breath. BC and Dart don't believe it, for some odd reason. And BC thinks he should be giving more.
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Re: Warren Buffet the Marxist

Post by _dartagnan »

Buffet is donating the majority of his wealth to the Gates foundation which does give the money back to the poor in various forms.


I know Buffet gives to the poor. He isn't giving it "back" because that implies it was once theirs to begin with. If any billionare chooses to give to teh poor, then more power to them. I've give a pretty good percentage of my earnings to teh poor as well, but I want it to be voluntary, not obligatory and government enforced. Buffet is not giving billions to the government so it can redistribute it to the poor and that is the difference betwee him and Obama.

Private sector manages money much better than government ever could.
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_Tarski
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Re: Warren Buffet the Marxist

Post by _Tarski »

dartagnan wrote:
Private sector manages money much better than government ever could.

And Wall Street proves that doesn't it? LOL
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Re: Warren Buffet the Marxist

Post by _asbestosman »

If only voluntary donations worked. That we have mandatory taxes should hint as to whether it really does work. It doesn't work. If the government didn't force us to pay, we wouldn't have enough money to pay for law enforcement, military protection, roads, etc. We also wouldn't have enough people trained for skilled jobs.

It's not that I disagree about voluntary contributions being superior to government buerocracy. I simply feel that charitable donations are insufficient at giving the little guy a reasonable shot.
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Re: Warren Buffet the Marxist

Post by _Analytics »

dartagnan wrote:
What he says here is entirely consistent with the Warren Buffet's views on taxation which I described at the top.

Sure it is consistent, but many things are "consistent" with one another while remaining distinct. You are naïvely arguing for an equation here. Buffet's view is not identical to Obama's but you're conflating the two as if they were.

You are ignoring the fact that not only does Buffet endorse Obama, he advises him on tax policy. In his more recent book, Obama explains his tax philosophy through the voice of Buffet in the form of quoting what Buffet told Obama in their personal conversations. Given that fact, I think it is totally fair and appropriate to say their views on taxes are one and the same.

dartagnan wrote:It seems the only thing they have in common on taxes is that they both think the rate should be raised on the rich. Big deal. That alone doesn't justify the claim that they are both Marxists. Obama sets himself apart from the rest because he wants to "spread the wealth" around...


Obama wants to "spread the wealth" in exactly the same way and for exactly the same reasons that Buffet does.

Here are some questions for you to see if you were paying attention to the OP.

1- Does Warren Buffet believe that the the free market distributes wealth fairly and wisely? (A: No, Buffet thinks the free market distributes weath in a way that is unfair and foolish, and thus needs to be redistributed)

2- Does Warren Buffet believe that the ultra-rich deserve the money they make? (A: No, Buffet thinks that they don't--that the pie is not distributed according to what each party deserves, but rather according to what they can negotiate. The wealth must be redistributed so that the people who got the biggest benefits from society give the most back. This is a Marxist way of looking at things, and it is the way Warren Buffet looks at things.)

Here is what Buffet actually says in his own words:
“The free market’s the best mechanism ever devised to put resources to their most efficient and productive use; the government isn’t particularly good at that. But the market isn’t so good at making sure that the wealth that’s produced is being distributed fairly or wisely....

Not very many billionaires share my views. They have this idea that it’s ‘their money’ and that they deserve to keep every penny of it. What they don’t factor in is all the public investment that lets us live the way we do. Take me as an example. I happen to have a talent for allocating capital. But my ability to use that talent is completely dependent on the society I was born into. If I’d been born into a tribe of hunters, this talent of mine would be pretty worthless. I can’t run very fast. I’m not particularly strong. I’d probably end up as some wild animal’s dinner.

“But I was lucky enough to be born in a time and place where society values my talent, and gave me a good education to develop that talent, and set up the laws and the financial system to let me do what I love doing—and make a lot of money doing it. The least I can do is help pay for all that.”
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_dartagnan
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Re: Warren Buffet the Marxist

Post by _dartagnan »

ignoring the fact that not only does Buffet endorse Obama, he advises him on tax policy.

So what? Buffet doesn't do willingly what Obama proposes to force others to do. This makes Buffet either a double-talker or someone who doesn't agree with Obama to the extent that you would like. But what if Buffet is a Marxist?

So what? How does this make it OK for our President to be one too? You have yet to explain this.

Obama wants to "spread the wealth" in exactly the same way and for exactly the same reasons that Buffet does.

1- Does Warren Buffet believe that the the free market distributes wealth fairly and wisely? (A: No, Buffet thinks the free market distributes weath in a way that is unfair and foolish, and thus needs to be redistributed)

I disagree with Buffet's poor reasoning for maintaining teh estate tax, as do many other educated economists. His reasoning is that he doesn't like the idea that some people will inherit a financial empire. But these people are only a tiny minority of those involved in estate taxes. What about the man who makes less than 100k/year all his life and manages to save a few hundred thousand for his kids and grandkids when he dies.
He pays taxes on all his property and income all his life and then when he dies, the government taxes it all again in one large swoop. Why? Because he died, and it doesn't think it is "fair" for the children and grandchildren to receive the fruits of their father and grandfather's labor.

Buffet's argument makes it sound more "fair" if you keep in mind the picture he is trying to represent as the norm. He's imagining Bill Gate's son inheriting the Microsoft Empire when Bill dies. He argued before the senate that by getting rid of teh death tax, we'd be in danger of creating a "plutocracy." What an idiot.

As that blogger noted, people like Soros and Buffet love the death tax because it allows people like them to come in and buy foreclosed properties at pennies on the dollar.Why? Because Joe Blow, who makes 30k/year, who happens to inherit a million dollar mansion, isn't able to pay the the death tax upon his father's death. So the only winner here is the government and/or other millionares who swoop in and "invest" in these properties at rock bottom prices. Now what seems more honorable? I think it would be more honorable to allow a dying man to provide for his family without having to worry about them getting hit with a whammy of a tax upon his death. There is nothing "fair" about the death tax.

Buffet said, "When you get rid of the estate tax, you’re basically handing over command of the country’s resources to people who didn’t earn it."

By that logic, Buffet has no business giving to the poor since they didn't "earn" it. Buffet and the "sober announcer" create this ridiculous straw man about an aristocracy, seemingly ignorant of the fact that America creates more millionaires than any other country in the world. Buffet appears to be under this delusion that most millionaires today were born with a gold spoon in their mouth.

Buffet: “Not very many billionaires share my views. They have this idea that it’s ‘their money’ and that they deserve to keep every penny of it."

Wow, how dare them! And again, the only other option is to think it isn't their money, but rather money teh government is just letting them use until it decides they've used too much of it, at which point it can arbitrarily take it away. Genius!

He continues, "What they don’t factor in is all the public investment that lets us live the way we do. Take me as an example. I happen to have a talent for allocating capital. But my ability to use that talent is completely dependent on the society I was born into. If I’d been born into a tribe of hunters, this talent of mine would be pretty worthless. I can’t run very fast. I’m not particularly strong. I’d probably end up as some wild animal’s dinner."

Commendable. This is similar to alumni giving back funds and contributions to their alma mater. But this should always be voluntary. If Buffet feels like he benefited from some aspect of his childhood society and if he truly believes it made him the man he is, and shaped him to be the money maker that he became, then fine. Let him give as much back as he wants. But don't pretend the same holds true for everyone who succeeds and creates wealth. The fact is those evil rich people are the ones paying the brunt of the taxes, which pay for roads and public transportation and public education, etc, all of which they aren't likely to use anyway.

Don't pretend the poor pay enough taxes to fund even the most basic of their necessities. They rely on the rich, not vice versa. I remember when Orlando's public transportation was being debated two decades ago. The tax increase was an issue of dispute. The majority of the tax payers didn't want it because they'd never use it. But they went through with it anyway because they were tired of Puerto Ricans stealing bicycles. Nowadays whenever you take the MARTA in Atlanta or the LYNX transport in Orlando, you're likely to be the only caucassian on it.

Last year when I returned from Brasil I decided I would take the LYNX a couple of times to protest the outrageous gasoline prices. Every time I was the only caucassian on the bus. Most everyone else were taking trips to the grocery store or to their job at some fast food restaurant. To be sure, it isn't their taxes that are paying for the system. And to add more insult to injury, the local governments refuse to increase the fare to reflect the increasing gas prices, so the entire project becomes a money pit for tax payers who aren't even using it.
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