concerns & appreciations re LDS faith & community

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_moksha
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Re: concerns & appreciations re LDS faith & community

Post by _moksha »

loves2sing wrote: I would be sad to miss out on being present at her wedding, sad but not devastated... To me this is not a huge issue.


If this was my daughter, I would feel hurt by this. My solution would be to have a civil wedding afterward, immediately followed by a reception.

I would prefer that she have lots of freedom - intellectually, emotionally, and even spiritually, freedom to grow and learn and find what is authentically her own life path. I don't think she will find this in the LDS church and community.
Cynthia


Being LDS does not preclude learning the wisdom of the ages and adding it into your path as well. I think many LDS do this even if they do not acknowledge it. Hope your daughter can do this as well.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_loves2sing
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Re: concerns & appreciations re LDS faith & community

Post by _loves2sing »

Thanks for the welcome, Seven.

"Chapel Mormons"?


Seven wrote: Even though LDS do believe other faiths have remnant truths following the great apostacy (e.g. the correct portions of the Bible, Jesus Christ, God, certain doctrines), it is always trumped by the sure knowledge that Mormonism holds the complete restored truth to salvation. There is only one path back to God in Mormon doctrine and it requires temple ordinances.


Yes, this is exactly the sense I get from many of the people I've been getting to know in our ward... "the sure knowledge," indeed.

I can see why that might feel like a good thing, a safe harbor... and why it might feel devastating to lose such a belief.
Love is not the answer. Love is the assignment.
- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: concerns & appreciations re LDS faith & community

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Dear loves2sing:

I'm a professor at the Church's Brigham Young University, in Provo, Utah, and the bishop of a single young adult ward (congregation) of the Church located adjacent to the public Utah Valley University. I've also written rather extensively on Mormon topics and am the president-elect of the Society for Mormon Philosophy and Theology.

If you would like to send any questions to me at daniel_peterson@BYU.edu, I'll do my best to answer them as my schedule permits.

With best wishes,

Dan Peterson
_Seven
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Re: concerns & appreciations re LDS faith & community

Post by _Seven »

loves2sing wrote:Thanks for the welcome, Seven.

"Chapel Mormons"?


Hi loves2sing, :smile:

Dr. Shades coined the terms “Chapel Mormons” and “Internet Mormons” to define the dichotomy that exists in the church between apologists and the rank and file members. It is very useful to use these terms when discussing where a person falls on the spectrum of Mormon belief and knowledge of church history.

“Chapel Mormon” represents the majority of the church, the active members who fill the chapels each Sunday. These are members who have only studied whitewashed LDS history and doctrine from the church. These publications have been carefully crafted (e.g. they portray Joseph Smith as a monogamist) & make it as faith promoting as possible. They are ignorant of the controversial issues that are discussed on the internet between apologists and critics, partly because they have been taught to shield themselves from it. Anything troubling goes "on the shelf." They only read church approved publications and if they hear something negative on LDS history (like the PBS special on the Mormons) will view it as “anti Mormon lies" from Satan to destroy their testimony or people who have an axe to grind against the church. Most would view the writings of apologists as “anti Mormon” because they have never encountered this information from their faithful study.

I was a Chapel Mormon before studying Mormon polygamy as most critics of Mormonism used to be. Chapel Mormons actually believe the teachings and words of the Prophets are from God when they claim to speak as such (e.g. General Conference talks, church curriculum).

"Internet Mormon" refers to apologists and members that are aware of the controversial issues, but will discard the previous teachings and doctrine of the Prophets as "opinion" to fit whatever their belief is. They are a very small portion of the church and most members don’t even know they exist. Most internet Mormons prefer to keep the Chapel Mormons ignorant of the unvarnished history, and do not speak up in Sunday School to correct the myths and errors . (for their own good) They will misuse the metaphor “milk before meat” to keep members from learning issues that could harm their faith. There are always exceptions to these examples, but for the most part it's the most accurate way to describe them. Some apologists (like LDS historian Richard Bushman) are taking the innoculation approach now and give little bits of information to Chapel Mormons with the positive spin on it, in hopes of avoiding what happened to members like myself.


As an example:
Chapel Mormons believe polygamy was only practiced by a very small percentage of the church and only to take care of the widows who had lost husbands on the trek West. Most are unaware that Joseph Smith practiced mortal polygamy in Nauvoo and can only name his first wife Emma. The ones who are aware that he practiced polygamy, believe they were only sealings and not consumated marriages. They have never heard the teachings from Prophets that God and Jesus are polygamists, or that eternal marriage would only exist for those who entered plural marriage.

Internet Mormons know that polygamy was taught and practiced as a requirement for exaltation, to attain the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. They are aware that young girls were coerced into marrying older men in polygamy to gain this reward and avoid damnation. They are aware that Joseph Smith had around 33 well documented wives and secretly married many women who had living husbands.

It’s best summed up by this:
“Chapel Mormons will typically try and bend the facts to fit the prophets, while Internet Mormons are far more comfortable bending the prophets to fit the facts.”
http://www.mormoninformation.com/imvscm.htm

When I was first beginning to study Mormon polygamy, I came across countless sermons by LDS Prophets that stated plural marriage was required for exaltation, as part of the Patriarchal order for becoming Gods. There are three levels in the Celestial Kingdom and to attain the highest, Joseph Smith taught that members must enter plural marriage as the higher law. As a Chapel Mormon discovering this information, I became distraught over what I had learned because I actually believed these men were Prophets and these teachings either had to be true, or these men were in apostasy. So my options were to gain a testimony that plural marriage was a true principle of God, or reject these men as true Prophets.



Internet Mormons will easily discard all the sermons/revelations/teachings to the church on polygamy as “opinion” and believe that the Prophets of the church who lived it and revealed why it was required misunderstood what D & C 132
actually means. :confused: Like many other issues, they have created their own doctrine out of this section and completely taken it out of context to fit with how the church currently views temple marriage.

Once you become aware of these issues, you either become a critic/apostate/New Order Mormon, or an internet Mormon. There is no going back to Chapel Mormonism.

The most common fallacy I see from Internet Mormons is that members who become disillusioned expected perfect Prophets. I NEVER expected perfect leaders and I know others didn't either. I just believed that when Prophets claimed to speak for God and define doctrine, that they were truly inspired. If Joseph Smith had affairs, it would not affect my faith. His personal sins or off the record statements do not damage my testimony of the church.
It’s that he claimed GOD TOLD HIM TO DO IT and coerced young girls into marrying him for exaltation that damaged my testimony.


There are obviously going to be some differences in beliefs between both groups but active believing Mormons will usually fall strongly on either end of the spectrum.
There are so many examples we could use to explain the differences between Chapel Mormons and Internet Mormons on topics like blacks and the Priesthood, the translation, the flood, Book of Abraham, etc.. Here is a blog listing a few: http://mormon411.blogspot.com/2009/01/d ... s-and.html
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence...
That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: concerns & appreciations re LDS faith & community

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

For the record, I think the supposed dichotomy between chapel Mormons and internet Mormons is specious and absurd, deny the purported "facts" that it claims to be based upon, and regard most of the reasoning used to justify it as fatally flawed.
_loves2sing
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Re: concerns & appreciations re LDS faith & community

Post by _loves2sing »

Thanks for introducing yourself, Daniel.

Impressive credentials... I appreciate your willingness to participate in this conversation, and I welcome hearing from such a knowledgeable source.


Daniel Peterson wrote:If you would like to send any questions to me at daniel_peterson@BYU.edu, I'll do my best to answer them as my schedule permits.



Thank you for this invitation. Right now I'm in the midst of law school final exams, so it'll be a while, but I will indeed ask you several questions.

I want to work my way to well-informed conclusions.
Love is not the answer. Love is the assignment.
- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
_loves2sing
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Re: concerns & appreciations re LDS faith & community

Post by _loves2sing »

Hi, Seven.

Okay, let's see if I get it. Is this a fair summary?

"Internet Mormons" are apologists and those who accept apologists' arguments. They assume the faith is true. They are aware of historical and doctrinal problem areas, but dismiss them by arguing that these problems are all rooted in the individual opinions of former church leaders, rather than caused by any actual problems with the "revealed" faith.

"Chapel Mormons" simply accept what they are taught in church and Sunday school, and don't question the official teachings. They don't investigate outside of church publications, and would dismiss anything troubling from such outside sources as coming from Satan.

(Please correct any errors & advise me of significant omissions.)


A couple of questions:

Seven wrote:Once you become aware of these issues, you either become a critic/apostate/New Order Mormon, or an internet Mormon. There is no going back to Chapel Mormonism.


What is a New Order Mormon?



Seven wrote: The most common fallacy I see from Internet Mormons is that members who become disillusioned expected perfect Prophets. I NEVER expected perfect leaders and I know others didn't either. I just believed that when Prophets claimed to speak for God and define doctrine, that they were truly inspired. If Joseph Smith had affairs, it would not affect my faith. His personal sins or off the record statements do not damage my testimony of the church.
It’s that he claimed GOD TOLD HIM TO DO IT and coerced young girls into marrying him for exaltation that damaged my testimony.


But, if you never expected a Prophet to be perfect, then how could you expect him to be perfect in telling the truth (or even knowing the truth) about whether or not he was truly inspired at a particular moment?

It sounds like you did expect perfection from them, in that area, at least.

And I find myself wondering about prophecy. I think I get it, that a prophet wouldn't necessarily be functioning as a prophet all of the time. So, like you, I don't think Joseph Smith's behavior when he wasn't functioning that way reflects on the truth about the LDS faith. He (or any other prophet) is a human being, and perhaps not a very good disciple... But if a prophet's human imperfections include not always knowing when he is or isn't inspired, how can I know which of his pronouncements I can trust?

Thanks, Seven. You've really got me thinking.


And thanks for the links. Quite useful. (I could spend all my time reading and learning about these things. In fact I'm finding it all fascinating, even compelling. Staying up later than I think is wise, following links and exploring ideas...)
Love is not the answer. Love is the assignment.
- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
_loves2sing
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Re: concerns & appreciations re LDS faith & community

Post by _loves2sing »

Daniel Peterson wrote:For the record, I think the supposed dichotomy between chapel Mormons and internet Mormons is specious and absurd, deny the purported "facts" that it claims to be based upon, and regard most of the reasoning used to justify it as fatally flawed.



Please clarify, Daniel.

You don't think there are distinct groups, those who limit themselves to what's taught officially in church and those who are apologists or agree with (or adopt) apologists' way of explaining problems without abandoning the faith?

Do you see more of a continuum? Or do you see the groups within the faith differently? Or no such divisions at all?

Which facts do you deny?

What's the fatal flaw you find in the reasoning?

Thanks.
Love is not the answer. Love is the assignment.
- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: concerns & appreciations re LDS faith & community

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

I don't think there are two distinct groups. There are various continuums. Some members have more faith, some less. Some know more, some know less. Some are fairly sophisticated, some are rather simple. Some are very serious about their religious beliefs, some are less so. Some are intellectually inclined, some aren't. Every person is different; no two are alike.

Moreover, it's false and misleading to suggest that apologists reject the prophets. I'm often described here (falsely, but it will do to make my point) as the "chief Mormon apologist." But, in fact, I recognize the authority of the prophets and apostles of the Church, and, for what it's worth, I'm personally acquainted and on very good terms with the current ones.

I would, I suppose, be the archetypal "internet Mormon." But in reality, I'm not. I'm a living, breathing refutation of this agenda-driven, overly schematic, simplistic dichotomy.
_Roger Morrison
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Re: concerns & appreciations re LDS faith & community

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Hi L2S :wink:

I'm happy for You and your Daughter. I know you are sleeping better than you did several mnths ago. I suggest you will handle the challenge of LDSism with the same success as you you achieved in transforming the life of your daughter.

Especially do I relate to you. We have 5 daughters, aged 33 to 56, all of whom experienced being raised in "The Church". Only one of whom is presently active. My wife and I graduated from Mormonism some 15+/- years ago, with few regrets. LDSism served its purpose and provided all of the positives that are obvious, and of course heralded by the church PR Dept.

(GBHinkley, being somewhat of a masterful PR man... "...share truths..." Really??? :-)

You described a typical small ward SS class with 6 hard-core indoctrinated members who will impress favourably, or otherwise, as the "Inquirerers" (your term :-) require. Generally Mormonism attracts people with rather serious needs--as your daughter displayed.

I respect Your attitude immensely--not bothered by wedding--and focussing on the immediate. The future will look after itself when the present is attended intelligently. Reading your posts indicate to me, You are most capable of doing that... Good luck...
Roger
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