Sure, Faithful Parents Save Wayward Children.. no problem.

[_Jason Bourne]

I agree, Miss Taken. And the scriptures support your concept. Despite the erronouse total rejection of the validity of other people who claim God as their own, the Jews knew at least one important concept: God is no respector of persons. There never was a covenant people; it's impossible to align a "covenant people" with the concept of "no respector of persons," so for Joseph to "restore" the concept only shows his ignorance of how God really works. (Joseph's gift was the Book of Mormon, nothing more. Everything else is the teachings of men mingling freely with God's own teachings.) The ancients had no clearer concept of God than the men today. They guessed, they wished, they hoped they got it right, but because they had no clearer a conduit than we do, they missed the mark, sometimes by a little, sometimes by a lot.

There certainly is a concept of a covenant and chosen people. The Whole Old Testament is about that. In fact, the New Testament is too, when one studies its teachings that the gentiles are adopted in and covered by the Abrahamic covenant when they are saved by Jesus Christ. So Joseph Smith was not in error in at least thinking that God works through a covenant people.

As for the quote by Whitney it is based on the belief that the temple covenants and sealing power mean something. It does not give sinful children a free ride but notes that they will pay the utter most farthing themselves, being turned over to the buffeting of Satan. In other words, they pay for their own sin if they do not repent, which is true of anyone, then the sealing power will still bind them to their righteous parents.

I am curious. I have seen this quote from Elder Whitney many times. He attributes this to Joseph Smith but I have not found on the point remarks by Joseph Smith himself. Anyone know where it might be found?

[_Mary]

Jason. Been thinking about this one.

Yes, there is a concept of a covenant people, I understand that.

Jesus of Nazareth however, didn't seem to put much truck on it, if he has been quoted correctly?

'The first shall be last, and the last shall be first' comes to mind.

The calling to be a light to the world, and the warning of hiding a light under a bushel, and of salt losing its 'saltiness', also
come to mind.

Being a covenant person, is an interesting concept, but I would say that it includes behaving in a certain way, and following the core
admonition to love. I guess it would also include believing in one God from a historical Hebrew perspective. (though even the history of
monotheism within Judaism is messy)

So who can make the covenant?
What is the covenant?
How does one live the covenant?

My personal answers to those questions would include more than just Mormons, and indeed more than just christians, would not exclude on the basis of race, and it would also exclude many in that category (Mormons for instance) who aren't, despite being born into Mormonism or being a part of Mormonism, behaving in a manner condusive to 'the covenant'.

Just some thoughts.
Please feel free to criticise my thinking.

Mary

[_Inconceivable]

bump.

[_ajax18]

So if you have extra righteous parents who prayed you out of sin like Alma the younger, you get to go to the Celestial kingdom after you've paid your debt, right? But if you didn't have those parents, maybe you'd be stuck in the Terrestrial after you had paid your dues. That seems like the nuts and bolts of it to me, is that right?

I wonder what you would tell a parent whose child commimtted suicide?

My MP had the idea that his wayward children would be replaced and their memory would be erased from his mind so that he would enjoy the family he had earned on earth. So this seemed like an explanation that fit for me.

And you know it's stories like this where the good decisions of parents override the poor decisions of children that make it very difficult for me to not conclude that Mormon Doctrine has no more logical integrity than emergency soothsaying or threats depending on how you want to steer a person. What happened to agency? Did the Lord really reveal these logical contradictions to the prophets with no explanation to test our faith, or did we just start running into cases where the original rules weren't turning out good results for some people and therefore we decided to change them, and in so doing knocked over the whole house of cards with it? Which is more likely?

One thing is for sure in this world, who your parents are and what they do determine an awful lot about a persons happiness and success in life, and these things are not necessarily dependent on the child who will ultimately suffer the consequences. Whether blessings or curses, very few of them stop at the end of one mans life, but rather are passed on for many generations to come.

[_harmony]

My MP had the idea that his wayward children would be replaced and their memory would be erased from his mind so that he would enjoy the family he had earned on earth. So this seemed like an explanation that fit for me.

My God. That's a horrible thought. That's like saying God forgets all about us sinners.

[_haleray]

I'll add my perspective on this, as someone with inactive parents.

I can understand why the GA said it, he's talking to many a parent out there who believes that the only way to salvation is through the LDS church. It's soothing to contemplate that these children won't be lost, that eventually they will return to the LDS fold, either in this or the afterlife.

I dunno. At a practical level, what it does is perpetuate nepotism. Oh yes. The Stake president's son is an adulterer, inactive, fornicator, child abuser etc etc, but that's okay. He's special, he's born in the covenant, it is an invisible tie that will tie him in to a celestial afterlife. Those children born out of the covenant (like me!), nope,....they have no such promise.

I'm sorry. It's a complete pile of absolute and utter crock, with not very nice implications.

I can handle that 'God' is a nepotist. But if 'God' is a nepotist then he/she/it INCLUDES ALL of his/her/its children. ALL of them.
It's inclusive. From the pygmy tribes to the aborigine, the maori, the chinese, the arabs, and the west. We are all a human family, and he loves us all EQUALLY.

Mormons are no more loved by 'God' than any other nation or people. All of us, (if there is a God) will be judged according to our understanding and environment, taking into account the limitations of our physical brains and bodies. That mysterious personality soup, is something that a gracious God knows and understands. It won't matter two bits what religion you were or weren't.

In my opinion.

I also agree with the opening thread poster, that the two lines of thought in LDS theology, are contradictory and non-sensical. (If I interpreted the thread correctly..)

While they don't say it very often I think there is an elitist philosophy. It's built into LDS scripture. Abraham's 'noble and great ones' vision. The idea that the strongest spirits generally come through certain bloodlines is not explicitly taught much but there are strong Book of Mormon and Biblical evidences of this. While not an explicit doctrine I believe it as it clarifies premortal influence for me. I've known idiot teens who were suddenly converted and overnight became powerhouses. While it doesn't seem that way to me others have told me I was like that.

I agree that some people in the Church has an elitist train of thought. For example, thinking that a person that has pioneer ancestry will go the Celestial Kingdom faster than someone who is a convert. Or go as far as saying that a convert will never get to the highest part of the Celestial Kingdom, but since the Celestial Kingdom has three parts, then they might be able to go to one of the lower levels of the Celestial Kingdom, which the Lord has never revealed what a person must do to get in.

[_Dr. Shades]

I agree that some people in the Church has an elitist train of thought. For example, thinking that a person that has pioneer ancestry will go the Celestial Kingdom faster than someone who is a convert.

You've never met anyone who thinks like that, have you?

Or go as far as saying that a convert will never get to the highest part of the Celestial Kingdom, but since the Celestial Kingdom has three parts, then they might be able to go to one of the lower levels of the Celestial Kingdom, which the Lord has never revealed what a person must do to get in.

You've never met anyone who thinks like that either, have you?

[_Inconceivable]

I agree that some people in the Church has an elitist train of thought. For example, thinking that a person that has pioneer ancestry will go the Celestial Kingdom faster than someone who is a convert.

You've never met anyone who thinks like that, have you?

I've met some that believe that family legacy gives them an entitlement - an unspoken caste system. Some use the high leadership positions of family members to quantify their clan's connection with God.

Perhaps they have seen what dirtbags their parents or other relatives have been in their private/business, yet deified at their funerals.

I'd call them Mormon Zoramites (those who know little to nothing concerning the actual Good News of Christ, forgiveness and charity.

I'll reference this passage from their own book:

14 Therefore, whosoever desired to worship must go forth and stand upon the top thereof, and stretch forth his hands towards heaven, and cry with a loud voice, saying:
15 Holy, holy God; we believe that thou art God, and we believe that thou art holy, and that thou wast a spirit, and that thou art a spirit, and that thou wilt be a spirit forever.
16 Holy God, we believe that thou hast separated us from our brethren; and we do not believe in the tradition of our brethren, which was handed down to them by the childishness of their fathers; but we believe that thou hast elected us to be thy holy children; and also thou hast made it known unto us that there shall be no Christ.
17 But thou art the same yesterday, today, and forever; and thou hast elected us that we shall be saved, whilst all around us are elected to be cast by thy wrath down to hell; for the which holiness, O God, we thank thee; and we also thank thee that thou hast elected us, that we may not be led away after the foolish traditions of our brethren, which doth bind them down to a belief of Christ, which doth lead their hearts to wander far from thee, our God.
18 And again we thank thee, O God, that we are a chosen and a holy people. Amen.

(Book of Mormon | Alma 31:14 - 18)

This would be a topic worth discussing on its own. There are many parallels to today's Mormon church and this Godless prayer.

[_bcspace]

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.”

Doesn't seem to say what kind of salvation. "Suffering for their sins" sounds like what comes before the Telestial. All, except the sons of Perdition, will be saved in some degree or another.

[_Inconceivable]

Doesn't seem to say what kind of salvation.

Let me break down a few key phrases for you:

..sealings of faithful parents and the promises made to them for ..service in the Cause of Truth, would save ..their posterity.

to a ..father’s heart and home, ..the salvation of God.”

It's pretty clear here, BC.

My mom has been led to believe she will only have one home and that would be in the celestial realm. Persuade her to believe she misunderstood and she will die of a broken heart today.