Base matter and the Light of Christ

[_Gazelam]

Harmony,

The TRI questions are designed to control the letter of the law. The spirit of the law, that part that shows the contrite spirit, the compassionate spirit, the loving spirit, the kind spirit, the longsuffering spirit, the charitable spirit... that is not covered in the questions at all, and why? Because it is immaterial to the men who write the questions, who keep those who live the spirit of the law out of the temple if they happen to interpret the WoW differently than the current leadership.

Interpretation of the Word of Wisdom isn't really an option on the larger items concerned. Coffee, Tea,Alcohol, Tobbaco, and harmful drugs are off limits. I have no doubt abuse of perscription drugs is a growing concern. At the heart of the matter is the spirit of disobedience, the attitude of the people involved. It seems to me that many of the questions are designed to draw out the attitude of the person being questioned. it is in that manner they are able to perceive the spirit of the individual. Was it Kimball who stated that your attitude determines your altitude? And breaking the word of wisdom does not keep one out of heaven, a rebellious spirit does.

It's possible to love Christ, to follow his gospel, to love others, without ever once paying a penny of tithing.

Too much is ignored in the TRI questions, and too much is emphasized that is not commandment level.

Harmony, sacrifice is an integral part of following Christ, whether that be in ancient times or now. And what was Adams answer when the angel asked him why he was offering sacrifice? Why did the married couple drop dead before Peter when asked why they withheld some of their titheing?

And which of the TRI questions, the way our leaders determine our worthiness to enter the temple, addresses this list?

Which one doesent?

Until it's canonized, the familiar spirit may indeed be more familiar than you realize. The Brethren serve a purpose in matters like this: they alone can determine if something is scripture or not. And they have not put this book up for canonization, so the "familiar" spirit may simply be the one who would really like to lead you astray.

When Joseph Smith was engaged in translating the Old Testament (see Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible [JST]), he came to the Apocrypha and sought divine counsel on what to do with it. The revelation given in response to his prayer informed him that the Apocrypha contains both truth and error, but was "mostly translated correctly" (D&C 91:1). Although he was counseled not to translate the Apocrypha, the revelation states that any who read those writings with the Holy Spirit as a guide "shall obtain benefit therefrom"; without the Holy Ghost, a man "cannot be benefited" spiritually by reading the Apocrypha (D&C 91:5-6).

We aren't talking about heaven here. We're talking about the CK, a place I am determined to avoid at all costs.

Keep up the bad attitude regarding those that have been appointed to care for you and you may just get your wish. You need to anylize your attitude, and I am not being sanctimonious here. I have to anylize my own frequently.

[_Yoda]

Actually it is lost scripture rediscovered and translated, merely cited by Nibley. Not opinion.

Scripture that is NOT included in the current LDS canon. Why is it not included in the LDS canon? Could it be for the same reason that the Journal of Discourses is not considered part of LDS canon?

There are pieces of the Journal of Discourses that certainly could be considered LDS doctrine, but there is also quite a bit of opinion in the mix as well.....also the JoD is often taken out of context, as there is a lot of counsel that was directed specifically for the saints during that particular time period.

I'm not convinced what you found is scripture, Gaz. Why has it not been added to our current set of scriptures? We have added many other cross-references from the JST in our current set of scriptures. Why, would something as important as this, not be included? It is pivotal. It doesn't make sense that there would be no reference.

If you can find me a cross-reference of this scripture in our current set of scriptures, I will gladly stand corrected. Until then, we will have to agree to disagree. I have my own theory on Mary, mother of Christ, and will start a new thread regarding it when I have more time to get into it. It's a fascinating topic. I will start the thread in Celestial, so that it can remain respectful, and would appreciate your input when I put it together.

Also in relation to your earlier question regarding the salvation of righteous but unordained souls. Let me answer your question with a question: Why was Christ baptised?

Christ was baptized to set an example, and to invite all souls to come unto Him. I understand that.

That is why we have baptisms and temple ordinances for the dead. This gives those who died before they had the opportunity to be introduced the gospel the necessary tools needed to enter His kingdom.

That being said, however, I don't think that God's heart would be so hardened that he would not give those who are righteous, but simply did not gain a full understanding of the gospel here an opportunity to enter His kingdom. Even if their work had not been performed, I feel that He would create provisions for that work to happen, and for them to have that opportunity.

My point is that God's perception and understanding of His children's hearts are on a completely different level than ours. That is why He is the ultimate judge, and not us. I just think that there are a lot of things that we have to be careful of when it comes to being judgmental toward others.

Our laws are not God's laws, and I think that our eyes will be surprisingly opened in the next life.

[_harmony]

And what was Adams answer when the angel asked him why he was offering sacrifice?

Angels again. I think I may need to start a thread about angels. Because they pop up all over, when it's impossible... unless the modern prophets were/are wrong about angels.

We aren't talking about heaven here. We're talking about the CK, a place I am determined to avoid at all costs.

Keep up the bad attitude regarding those that have been appointed to care for you and you may just get your wish. You need to anylize your attitude, and I am not being sanctimonious here. I have to anylize my own frequently.

My "bad" attitude is a direct result of something basic to my nature: I will not bow before men. I acknowledge that no man is qualified to call me to repentence. I must do that myself. There is no man who appointed to care for me; I care for myself, or God does. I am not less than a man, and I refuse to contemplate an eternity in which I am forced into that role.

I'll be quite candid: I will not go where I am not valued as an individual... and women in multiples are not valued as individuals in the CK. I would rather be where I am not required to be some man's possession who is never allowed to see her children's faces. I am quite adamant on the subject. That is not my God.

[_Gazelam]

Liz,

Christ was baptized to set an example, and to invite all souls to come unto Him.

Being an example was only part of the answer. An example in what? He was an example in being obedient to the Law.

Matthew
13 ¶ Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a avoice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Although sinless and the Messiah himself, he still had need to be sealed and ordained by the proper priesthood authority. The Laws ordained by the Father must be fullfilled.

Even if their work had not been performed, I feel that He would create provisions for that work to happen, and for them to have that opportunity.

I think the great work of the Millenium will be performing the ordinances for those whose names have gone unaccounted for in the annals of time. That is why we cover the Earth with temples now, in preparation.

[_Gazelam]

Harmony,

Angels again. I think I may need to start a thread about angels. Because they pop up all over, when it's impossible... unless the modern prophets were/are wrong about angels.

Are you refering to the statement that only those who have to do with this world administer to us? Or are you refering to the statement that they only do for us what we ourselves cannot?

My "bad" attitude is a direct result of something basic to my nature: I will not bow before men. I acknowledge that no man is qualified to call me to repentence. I must do that myself. There is no man who appointed to care for me; I care for myself, or God does. I am not less than a man, and I refuse to contemplate an eternity in which I am forced into that role.

I'll be quite candid: I will not go where I am not valued as an individual... and women in multiples are not valued as individuals in the CK. I would rather be where I am not required to be some man's possession who is never allowed to see her children's faces. I am quite adamant on the subject. That is not my God.

Harmony I think you have gotten some bad information that has tainted your view of the gospel.
Of coarse God sets those before us to call us to repentance, and why would that be a bad thing? Christ called the Apostles to repentance, and then bowed himself before them and washed their feet as a token of what it truly means to be called to lead and direct them. I think you need to contemplate that.

What teaching of the gospel has led you to believe that you are not valued as an individual? Every teaching of the gospel is set before us to exalt, uplift cleanse, and educate us. don't take the aspect of service in the gospel as something that causes you to be less as an individual. Remember the washing of the feet lesson. Service builds and exalts, it does not diminish.

No man enters the Celestial Kingdom without his wife by his side. Not before or behind him, at his side. The Pearl of Great Price states that Eve worked alongside her husband, not as his servant.

[_Yoda]

No man enters the Celestial Kingdom without his wife by his side. Not before or behind him, at his side. The Pearl of Great Price states that Eve worked alongside her husband, not as his servant.

I think that I can safely speak for Harmony here...definitely for myself....in saying that the situation you describe about the husband and wife working along side each other feels right, sacred, and is the part of the gospel that is the most appealing.

What diminishes this is when you add plural marriage to the mix. Don't you see how the eternal principle of plural marriage throws all of this out of balance?

The equal partnership no longer exists.

[_Jersey Girl]

What existing laws?
What are the laws?
Where do they originate?

It is a doctrine of the church that elements are eternal. This world was created out of eternaly existing matter. This material had to first be purified, melted down and prepared, but it was not created out of nothing.

Similarly, our spirits are eternal. We ourselves were organized by our Father in heaven. There exists eternal conditions. It is a simple concept to understand that fire is hot, ice is cold, water is wet. These are elemental properties, and they are self existing. God understands all of these conditions, and the potential outcome of all dealings with these conditions. He has all knowledge of things as they were, as they are, and as they are to come.

Laws did not originate, they simply are.

Are you talking about laws of nature? The natural world?

[_harmony]

Harmony,

Angels again. I think I may need to start a thread about angels. Because they pop up all over, when it's impossible... unless the modern prophets were/are wrong about angels.

Are you refering to the statement that only those who have to do with this world administer to us? Or are you refering to the statement that they only do for us what we ourselves cannot?

If, as I have been taught, angels are those who qualify for the lowest part of the CK and who administer to those who qualify for higher parts, and who are resurrected men... how could there be angels administering to Adam, since Adam was the first man?

Harmony I think you have gotten some bad information that has tainted your view of the gospel.
Of coarse God sets those before us to call us to repentance, and why would that be a bad thing? Christ called the Apostles to repentance, and then bowed himself before them and washed their feet as a token of what it truly means to be called to lead and direct them. I think you need to contemplate that.

You can think what you want; I'll decide what I contemplate.

God calls me to repentence. (all the time... *sigh*) I don't need a man to do it in his stead.

What teaching of the gospel has led you to believe that you are not valued as an individual?

When was the last time you veiled your face in the temple, Gaz? Never. I hate to veil my face, sitting so submissive with the sisters on our side of the room, while the men can figuretively face God unveiled. Do you not see how offensive that is? How that degrades women, to have to hide, while the men are free?

Every teaching of the gospel is set before us to exalt, uplift cleanse, and educate us.

Haven't read Sec 132 lately, have ya? There is nothing "uplifting" in that section. Nothing "exalting". There is eternal drudgery, eternal shame, eternity with women under men's thumb. No, I say! No!

don't take the aspect of service in the gospel as something that causes you to be less as an individual. Remember the washing of the feet lesson. Service builds and exalts, it does not diminish.

I'm not talking about service, Gaz. I'm talking about something a whole lot more insidious... the systematic devaluing of women, and I, personally, will not go where that is the norm, even if it means I never get to ride a drop of rain.

No man enters the Celestial Kingdom without his wife by his side. Not before or behind him, at his side. The Pearl of Great Price states that Eve worked alongside her husband, not as his servant.

How many wives did Adam have?

[_zzyzx]

I believe this just as much as I believe the light from the sun is only reflected from Kolob. Joseph Smith said it, it must be true.

[_harmony]

I believe this just as much as I believe the light from the sun is only reflected from Kolob. Joseph Smith said it, it must be true.

I think there are those who would say that God gave Joseph broad concepts, and left Joseph to implement them as he saw fit. Which, of course, accounts for a religion in which the founder was making it up as he went along, once he'd lost the prophetic mantle when he dropped his drawers with Fanny.