2nd Watson Letter just found!'

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_beastie
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _beastie »

LOL. Gotta love it. Now DCP has created a scenario that, as mortal man pointed out at MAD, requires two missing documents.

I see nothing particularly "mysterious" about the idea that an in-house document might have been formulated at some point, from which both the Carla Ogden fax and the Michael Watson letter drew (and from which it was intended that such communications draw), and from which the Encylopedia of Mormonism, advised by Elders Oaks and Maxwell, also drew. It may even have been created in connection with the production of the quasi-official Encyclopedia, which, as Elders Oaks and Maxwell surely understood, would be expected to explain the state-of-the-question on numerous issues, including Book of Mormon geography.


Rather than simply admit the obvious - the brethren were cribbing from the apologists - Dan creates a whole new problem. Ever hear of Occam's Razor, Dan?

It's so funny to me, because it belies what the apologists frequently assert - the brethren are fallible, and it's A-OK to disagree with them. If it is A-OK to disagree with the brethren, why are apologists so determined to be seen as in accordance with the brethren that they eagerly DOUBLE their problems???
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Nimrod
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _Nimrod »

DCP cannot help himself when it comes to spinning a new yarn and trying it out on his sycophants (and critics) to see if it has legs before he then exposes a source for it.

The most recent exhibit (post #397 in the In need of convincing LDS Scholarship thread at the MAD House is this:

"I ran into a colleague who knows something about the Encyclopedia of Mormonism.

"I mentioned the manufactured Watson-letter teapot-tempest to him, and he replied that, as he understood it, the text that shows up in both the Carla Ogden fax and the Michael Watson letter had already been circulating for several years, and that, if he was not mistaken, the text of the Encyclopedia's 'Book of Mormon Geography' article postdates that First Presidency text, and its language was deliberately worked into the Encyclopedia article at the suggestion of Elder Oaks and/or Elder Maxwell."

Of course, DCP will not name the colleague unless and until this fabrication perhaps withstands scrutiny. Some problems for DCP is that the EoM's article that includes the identical phrases as the Ogden Fax is not entitled 'Book of Mormon Geography' but 'Cumorah'. So perhaps DCP's unnamed colleague and DCP were talking about two different entries in the EoM without either realizing it.

For more weaseling, DCP says his unnamed colleague prefaced his comment with that colleague "was not mistaken".

Then DCP's statement, (1) so conditioned, (2) from the unnamed colleague (3) about a differently titled section of the EoM than that which Brent Metcalfe so aptly discovered and pointed out, reads that the text in the EoM "postdates... that First Presidency text, and its language was deliberately worked into the Encyclopedia article at the suggestion of Elder Oaks and/or Elder Maxwell." Not sure which one, Oaks or Maxwell (let's make sure Oaks, who is still alive, has some deniability--DCP is learning the lessons of the last fortnight rather well.

Maybe the unnamed colleague is John E Clark, the author of the other entry, the one entitled 'Book of Mormon Geography'--a much more thorough treatment in the EoM on the topic, but not the one from which the Ogden Fax phrases were lifted (that one was 'Cumorah' to which Ludlow's only Bibliography references are only to three of his comrades at FARMS.

Clark writes in the 'Book of Mormon Geography' entry that
[a]lthough Church leadership officially and consistently distances itself from issues regarding Book of Mormon geography... . * * * Dissimilarities among [speculators] stem from differences in (1) the interpretation of scriptural passages and statements of General Authorities;... . * * * The official position of the Church is that the events narrated in the Book of Mormon occurred somewhere in the Americas, but that the specific location has not been revealed. This position applies both to internal geographies and to external correlations. * * * In statements since [1842], Church leaders have generally declined to give any opinion on issues of Book of Mormon geography. * * * While the Church has not taken an official position with regard to location of geographical places, the authorities do not discourage private efforts to deal with the subject (Cannon).


There is no citation by Ludlow to what DCP describes as "First Presidency text" that predated EoM. No citation is made by Ludlow to either Maxwell or Oaks, who deliberately worked the language into EoM--neither at the 'Book of Mormon Geography' or 'Cumorah' entries. Yet there are at least 23 citations to Oaks in 14 other entries in the EoM and at least 22 citations to Maxwell in 16 other entries.

As for what is cited, ecclesiastically speaking, there are:

1-"Three statements sometimes attributed to the Prophet Joseph Smith are often cited as evidence of an official Church position. An 1836 statement asserts that 'Lehi and his company…landed on the continent of South America, in Chili [sic ], thirty degrees, south latitude' ([Richards, F., and J. Little, eds. Compendium of the Doctrines of the Gospel, rev. ed. Salt Lake City, 1925], p.272). This view was accepted by Orson Pratt and printed in the footnotes to the 1879 edition of the Book of Mormon, but insufficient evidence exists to clearly attribute it to Joseph Smith ('Did Lehi Land in Chili [sic]?'; cf. Roberts[, B. H. New Witnesses for God, 3 vols. Salt Lake City, 1909], Vol. 3, pp. 501-503, and Widtsoe[, John A. Evidences and Reconciliations, 3 vols. Salt Lake City, 1951], Vol. 3, pp. 93-98)."

2-Cannon, George Q. "Book of Mormon Geography" Juvenile Instructor (1890), reprinted, Instructor (1938) ("When asked to review a map showing the supposed landing place of Lehi's company, President Joseph F. Smith declared that the "Lord had not yet revealed it""; "the authorities do not discourage private efforts to deal with the subject").

3-In the words of John A. Widtsoe, an apostle, "All such studies are legitimate, but the conclusions drawn from them, though they may be correct, must at the best be held as intelligent conjectures" (Vol. 3, p. 93).

DCP quite supposes that the Office of the First Presidency created an "in-house document formulated at some point" prior to 1992 (date of EoM's publication). Post #407.

So, why no citations by Clark in the 'Book of Mormon Geography' entry in EoM to the "First Presidency text" of which DCP speaks and supposedly pre-dates the 1992 EoM. Why no citations by Clark to Oaks and/or Maxwell, who deliberately worked the language into EoM?

Why no citations by Ludlow in the 'Cumorah' entry of EoM to the "First Presidency text" of which DCP speaks and supposedly pre-dates the 1992 EoM. Why no citations by Ludlow to Oaks and/or Maxwell, who deliberately worked the language into EoM?

Ludlow and Clark both cited to many footnotes, but both need to keep the "First Presidency text" of which DCP speaks and supposedly pre-dates the 1992 EoM a secret? A secret that DCP is now letting out of the bag?

There seems to be no end to the extent that DCP will go in imagining something that excuses FARMS from having created the no-doctrine position of the LDS Church on the geography of Cumorah. DCP will suppose that there's some in-house document created at the Office of the First Presidency that Ludlow had access to and lifted phrases from for the EoM, without citing to or otherwise attributing the source.

But on the other hand, DCP and Hamblin dismiss what Watson wrote on October 16, 1990 as Watson's "misunderstanding" despite his official position with the First Presidency, and his explaining that "[t]he Church has long maintained, as attested to by references in the writings of General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon."

All of which begs the question, why DCP do you not put yourself out of this misery and get a copy of the file copy at the Office of the First Presidency of the 4/23/1993 letter from Watson to Hamblin, or barring that, a shiny new letter with this boilerplate signed by the Secretary to the First Presidency?

Do you not dare ask for it?

Do you fear what the response will be?

Do you fear what the implications for your life's work might be?
--*--
_Nimrod
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _Nimrod »

Did DCP really get a Church calling and the laying on of hands, and receives a salary wrenched out of tithing, in order to keep standing there as canon fodder for our artillery?

DCP, put down the shovel. The hole you are in is deep enough.

On second thought, please have lunch with another unnamed colleague tomorrow at the Wilkinson Center and then do pick up your shovel and post at the MAD House more of these tales?

I can't help but think of Agent Max on Get Smart trying to bluff his captors while held in a warehouse, demanding that they release him:

Maxwell Smart: Because at this very moment, this warehouse is being surrounded by one hundred cops with Doberman pinschers. Would you believe it? A hundred cops with Doberman pinschers.
Nicholas Dimente: I find that hard to believe.
Maxwell Smart: Would you believe ten security guards and a bloodhound?
Nicholas Dimente: I don't think so.
Maxwell Smart: How about a Boy Scout with rabies?

No, DCP, not even a Boy Scout with rabies. But I might believe that you have a phone in your shoe.
--*--
_harmony
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _harmony »

Nimrod wrote: But I might believe that you have a phone in your shoe.


There's the problem! The shoe phone's account has been suspended, pending investigation!
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Hello,

I fear the Good Doctor has made himself a liar. Without. A doubt. T'is a sad day for academia, dear friends.

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Paul Osborne

Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _Paul Osborne »

harmony wrote:
Rollo Tomasi wrote:Agreed. Brent exposed DCP and Hamblin for what they are when it comes to the so-called 2nd Watson letter: liars.


It's always hard to defend yourself, when your pants are down around your ankles (figuretively or literally).


Pants down? Literally for me, in all seriousness -- I kid you not!

:-)

Paul O
_Paul Osborne

Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _Paul Osborne »

Nimrod,

DCP is a saint compared to the likes of Spencer W. Kimball and fellow cronies of that sick ilk. DCP is just doing his job and getting paid in a catch 22 as a stooge and ultimately a scapegoat. The leaders are the real source of lies and deception. The leaders would cut him off or anyone else if they felt their society of rulership was threatened. The leaders are the source of lies and DCP is just stuck having to defend just like Nibley did -- all for the glory of a Zion where you work to get to heaven.

Isn't there a provision in the D&C where the members at large can vote to remove the FP and the 12 in one swoop?

Paul O
_cksalmon
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _cksalmon »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Hello,

I fear the Good Doctor has made himself a liar. Without. A doubt. T'is a sad day for academia, dear friends.

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me


Well, he has invoked apparently non-extant sources. That does not lead inexorably to the conclusion that he is lying, and I have significant doubts that he is.

No doubt, there is a significant question about the scholarship involved (citing a source that no one seems to able to locate in defense of a controversial claim raises a bright red flag), but that may well be a symptom of exactly what DCP claims to be the case: the Second Watson Letter has been (irrevocably?) mislaid.

I think DCP has only muddied the waters by invoking Q. As someone else observed, if he is right, we are then faced with two non-extant sources supporting the agnostic view (pick your position as to their weighted authority), two extant, but certainly non-official, sources that that also support it (Ogden and EoM), and a single source that denies it (FWL; again, assign it what level of authoritativeness you see fit).

I don't know what to make of it all, but I, for one, can certainly imagine a charitable resolution that would render such absolute pronouncements against DCP's honesty prematurely triumphalist.

cks
_TAK
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _TAK »

I can't help but wonder that we shall see the "true" second Watson letter shortly in an attempt to quell this fiasco... Of course it will most likely raise more questions than answer just like this does..
God has the right to create and to destroy, to make like and to kill. He can delegate this authority if he wishes to. I know that can be scary. Deal with it.
Nehor.. Nov 08, 2010


_________________
_harmony
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _harmony »

TAK wrote:I can't help but wonder that we shall see the "true" second Watson letter shortly in an attempt to quell this fiasco... Of course it will most likely raise more questions than answer just like this does..


I think we'll see the aforementioned document about the same time as we see the gold plates.

Again, I don't think Dan is lying. I think Dan is simply wrong. Again. Age does that sometimes.

(insert waving smilie--waving at Dan)
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
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