2nd Watson Letter just found!'

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_SoHo
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _SoHo »

beastie wrote:A quick reply, I really need to go do something else (I'll come back for more detail later)

People whose memories are misleading them are usually unaware that their memories are misleading them. They would not describe their memories as hazy or uncertain. They don't feel hazy or uncertain. That does not mean the memories - which feel accurate and detailed - are correct. See my earlier post about the Challenger experiment. Those people were completely convined their incorrect memories were, in fact, correct - even when faced with their own handwriting recording something different.


I don't disagree with that when just recounting something - e.g., what happened on a particular day. We all inaccurately recount certain memories, generally unaware that we are doing it. The problem arises when the recounting is meant to establish a point more important than the accuracy of the underlying facts. Ask me the name of the teaching assistant in my 3rd grade class, I'm pretty sure I remember. Ask me to testify that Ms. X was a teaching assistant in 1980 and I'll do a little checking to confirm my recollection.
"One of the surest ways to avoid even getting near false doctrine is to choose to be simple in our teaching." - Elder Henry B. Eyring, Ensign, May 1999, 74
_Rollo Tomasi
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Until the 2nd Watson Letter is produced and examined I can only say this whole affair is indisputable proof of Mormon apologists being 1) liars, and 2) myth peddlers.

Amen to that, brother. DCP and Hamblin cannot recover from this until they 'pony up' the 2nd Watson Letter (which, in my opinion, does not exist). I'm sure they've put Mark Hofmann to the task, as we write/speak. ;)
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_Joey
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _Joey »

So Peterson has now become the leading poster on the DanGB thread regarding Watson at madb!! Surprise - surprise! He definately has the time!

How many times does he have to say "I am not lying" before he convinces himself! The toll this whole expose has taken on him has become quite apparent by his hourly declarations of innocence!

Only in Provo baby! Keep typing Dan!
"It's not so much that FARMS scholarship in the area Book of Mormon historicity is "rejected' by the secular academic community as it is they are "ignored". [Daniel Peterson, May, 2004]
_beastie
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _beastie »

On the other hand, Beastie, Hamblin absolutely *was* deviating from scholarly standards of citation. I noted in an earlier post that, depending on the documentation style, the type of correspondence needs to be listed. In other words, saying "correspondence" doesn't cut it. The reader needs to be told that the source was a letter. DCP has said elsewhere that they rely on the Chicago Manuel of Style for their citations, which means that Hamblin blew it. Here's a site (from CUNY) which gives an example of the proper means of citation:


Oh, I don’t disagree that his sourcing is problematic and even incompetent, and I do agree that there has been something of a trend in Mormon apologia to use problematic sourcing.

If Sorenson's sloppy footnote is rendered a "problem," in your view, then how can we excuse Hamblin's blunder here? Is it simply a matter of content? And if so, don't we also have to fault Hamblin for failing to acknowledge what appear to be changes to the text?


in my opinion, the difference is that the source Hamblin was likely looking at – the fax – actually did say what he attributed to it. Yes, he omitted some words at the end which could be misleading, but Sorenson’s source didn’t say anything at all close to what Sorenson claimed it said. When confronted, he admitted it was the wrong source, that his real source was a lost personal correspondence from someone now dead. So if Sorenson had not made a completely erroneous citation but instead made a sloppy attribution to a letter that has never been found, then what he did would be very much like what Hamblin did – incompetent. But, in my view, the line of honesty instead of simple competence was crossed when Sorenson actually claimed a different source said something when it did not say it at all.

That’s why I think Sorenson’s footnoting could be used as an example of likely dishonesty and not just incompetence, whereas Hamblin’s seems more incompetence. The fact is that the found fax says pretty much what he claimed his source said.

Such as calling a personal letter a "correspondence"? I think that this vagueness is a really big problem in this case. Hamblin is trained as a historian, and in that discipline, sources are *extremely* important. It is practically a breach of the tenets of the profession to list sources in so vague a manner. I think it is very much like the case with Sorenson: we can credit this vagueness either to Hamblin's utter incompetence, or to the fact that he was deliberately trying to deceive.


As I said, I’m not arguing against the case that it shows incompetence and sloppiness. But it’s difficult to explain Sorenson’s mistake as nothing but incompetence when he had to LOOK at the source he cited to get a page number, and he HAD to see it didn’t say what he was claiming it said. OTOH, Hamblin was looking at a document that did pretty much say what he claimed it said. I think that is a crucial difference.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_harmony
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _harmony »

beastie wrote:As I said, I’m not arguing against the case that it shows incompetence and sloppiness. But it’s difficult to explain Sorenson’s mistake as nothing but incompetence when he had to LOOK at the source he cited to get a page number, and he HAD to see it didn’t say what he was claiming it said. OTOH, Hamblin was looking at a document that did pretty much say what he claimed it said. I think that is a crucial difference.


So Sorenson is an incompetent liar, and Hamblin is incompetent and sloppy. And they both pulled a paycheck from BYU, the Lord's University, seat of the famed Honor Code, funded by tithing dollars, accepting only the elite of the elite.

Good grief.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Ray A

Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _Ray A »

This isn't, in my opinion, in the same category as, say, Joseph Smith's outright lying to Emma.

Anyone with half a brain who has read a lot will realise that bias tends to proliferate on all sides. We choose our perspectives, and in doing so immediately become partial to them, often without fully realising it. We get "blind spots", so to speak.

My opinion of apologetics is lower than it has ever been, but I don't think it's appropriate to call this "game over", or even "match point" in regard to DCP being a "fraud, charlatan and liar". If the point is to rub his nose into the dirt with embarrassment and shame, or to suggest he can never be trusted in regard to anything again, then count me out.

Apologetics is still in Disneyland, as far as I'm concerned, and DCP is just naturally doing what comes to the biased apologetic mind. It doesn't make him Attila the Hun. Let's try to separate personal character issues from this debate, if we can. JMO.

Rebuttals and counterviews welcome.
_Nimrod
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _Nimrod »

I would just like to take a moment to recognize that beastie girded up her loans and took her blade into the lions' lair today. A friend has reported that beastie did particularly well quoting out of some LDS Church study guide (which the self-delusional tried to re-state to read how they need it for 2 Cumorahs) and a long passage about B.H. Roberts (that apparently was barely touched by the self-delusional, even DCP).

Good-on, beastie, good-on.
--*--
_harmony
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _harmony »

Nimrod wrote:I would just like to take a moment to recognize that beastie girded up her loans and took her blade into the lions' lair today. A friend has reported that beastie did particularly well quoting out of some LDS Church study guide (which the self-delusional tried to re-state to read how they need it for 2 Cumorahs) and a long passage about B.H. Roberts (that apparently was barely touched by the self-delusional, even DCP).

Good-on, beastie, good-on.


That would be "loins". And I think you give MAD too much credit.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_beastie
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _beastie »

Thank you, Nimrod, but 007 deserves the credit for bringing up the scripture guide that clearly teaches the one cumorah theory.

OTOH, I get full credit for the BH Roberts reference, which I copied over by hand. And yes, it was ignored.

Now, as long as I can discipline myself to resist continuing to post on the thread, I won't regret it. I only regret it when it turns into a black hole that sucks up all my time for no discernible benefit.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_SoHo
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Re: 2nd Watson Letter just found!'

Post by _SoHo »

beastie wrote:Thank you, Nimrod, but 007 deserves the credit for bringing up the scripture guide that clearly teaches the one cumorah theory.

OTOH, I get full credit for the BH Roberts reference, which I copied over by hand. And yes, it was ignored.

Now, as long as I can discipline myself to resist continuing to post on the thread, I won't regret it. I only regret it when it turns into a black hole that sucks up all my time for no discernible benefit.


Even those who accept that BH Roberts was sincere in his doubts often dismiss them on the basis that he didn't have access to the FARMS/FAIR apparatus to help guide him. I thought your work over there was noble - but it's a point that they'd rather have lost than lose.
"One of the surest ways to avoid even getting near false doctrine is to choose to be simple in our teaching." - Elder Henry B. Eyring, Ensign, May 1999, 74
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