Joseph Smith's used of his seer stones to find objects

[_thews]

We can now add Wiki Winka to the list of liars that attempt to paint magical seer stones as the Urim and Thummim.

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/ ... c363a3295d

We can complicate things further by noting that contemporary sources in 1829 indicate that Joseph put the stones from the "spectacles" (what we traditionally call the "Urim and Thummim") retrieved from the stone box in the bottom of his hat early in the translation process.

Who is "we" in the above Mr. Wiki Wonka, that "traditionally" calls seer stones the Urim and Thummim? You? You know this is false and is a lie. See the following from Fair:

Did Joseph lose the seer stone(s) and/or the Urim and Thummim?
Following the loss of the 116 pages, the Lord told Joseph:
1 NOW, behold, I say unto you, that because you delivered up those writings which you had power given unto you to translate by the means of the Urim and Thummim, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them.
2 And you also lost your gift at the same time, and your mind became darkened.
3 Nevertheless, it is now restored unto you again; therefore see that you are faithful and continue on unto the finishing of the remainder of the work of translation as you have begun.
4 Do not run faster or labor more than you have strength and means provided to enable you to translate; but be diligent unto the end. (D&C 10:1-4)

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. Ex. 23.1 · Mt. 19.18 · Mk. 10.19 · Lk. 18.20

[_thews]

Read the original post from MADB and watch the path of deception this takes:

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/ ... c363a3295d

[quote=ttribe] on 06 April 2010 - 04:07 PM, said:
Ahhh, but they are "magic rocks" fastened in a bow attached to a breastplate. Naturally, that makes them much more acceptable than ones sitting in the bottom of a hat. [/quote]

As with any debate there are facts used to formulate an opinion. Let’s pick some facts from FairMormon:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon ... /1829-1835

Hostile news account 11 August 1829
and after penetrating “mother earth” a short distance, the [Golden] Bible was found, together with a huge pair of spectacles! He had been directed, however, not to let any mortal being examine them, “under no less penalty” than instant death! They were therefore nicely wrapped up and excluded from the “vulgar gaze of poor wicked mortals!” It was said that the leaves of the Bible were plates of gold, about 8 inches long, 6 wide, and one eighth of an inch thick, on which were engraved characters or hyeroglyphics. By placing the spectacles in a hat, and looking into it, Smith could (he said so, at least,) interpret these characters.[1]
• Scribe: Not specified
• Curtain: Not specified
• Instrument: "Spectacles" (i.e., Nephite interpreters)
• Method: Spectacles in hat

Note in the reference above how the spectacles were used by placing them into a hat... they were not used as glasses like the Mormon websites portray falsely, as referenced here:



And another eyewitness account by Martin Harris from the same FairMormon link:

Martin Harris (eyewitness), paraphrased in the The Gem 5 September 1829
“In the autumn of 1827 a man named Joseph Smith of Manchester, in Ontario County, said that he had been visited by the spirit of the Almighty in a dream, and informed that in a certain hill in that town was deposited a Golden Bible, containing an ancient record of divine origin. He states that after the third visit from the same spirit in a dream he proceeded to the spot, removed earth, and there found the Bible, together with a large pair of spectacles. He had also been directed to let no mortal see them under the penalty of immediate death, which injunction he steadfastly adheres to. The treasure consisted of a number of gold plates, about 8 inches long, 6 wide, and one eighth of an inch thick, on which were engraved hieroglyphics. By placing the spectacles in a hat and looking into it, Smith interprets the characters into the English language

Hostile news account circa May 1830
A fellow by the name of Joseph Smith, who resides in the upper part of Susquehanna county, has been, for the last two years we are told, employed in dedicating as he says, by inspiration, a new Bible. He pretended that he had been entrusted by God with a golden Bible which had been always hidden from the world. Smith would put his face into a hat in which he had a white stone, and pretend to read from it, while his coadjutor transcribed

Note the specific use of “white stone” in the above, and the header of “hostile news account” to bias the reader in discounting it as a lie. It’s only “hostile” if it paints Joseph Smith in a bad light, but these accounts all say the same thing... and that's only Seer stones were used in a hat.

So what do we know about how the spectacles looked? Here’s a great source from a first-hand account:

http://thedigitalvoice.com/enigma/essays/AAffair1.htm

Professor Anthon's Two Letters

The first letter: to Eber D. Howe on February 17, 1834
(from Howe's Mormonism Unvailed pp. 270-272)

New York, Feb. 17, 1834.

Dear Sir -- I received this morning your favor of the 9th instant, and lose no time in making a reply. The whole story about my having pronounced the Mormonite inscription to be "reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics" is perfectly false. Some years ago, a plain, and apparently simple-hearted farmer, called upon me with a note from Dr. Mitchell of our city, now deceased, requesting me to decypher, if possible, a paper, which the farmer would hand me, and which Dr. M. confessed he had been unable to understand. Upon examining the paper in question, I soon came to the conclusion that it was all a trick, perhaps a hoax.

When I asked the person, who brought it, how he obtained the writing, he gave me, as far as I can now recollect, the following account: A "gold book," consisting of a number of plates of gold, fastened together in the shape of a book by wires of the same metal, had been dug up in the northern part of the state of New York, and along with the book an enormous pair of "gold spectacles"! These spectacles were so large, that, if a person attempted to look through them, his two eyes would have to be turned towards one of the glasses merely, the spectacles in question being altogether too large for the breadth of the human face. Whoever examined the plates through the spectacles, was enabled not only to read them, but fully to understand their meaning. All this knowledge, however, was confined at that time to a young man, who had the trunk containing the book and spectacles in his sole possession. This young man was placed behind a curtain, in the garret of a farm house, and being thus concealed from view, put on the spectacles occasionally, or rather, looked through one of the glasses, decyphered the characters in the book, and, having committed some of them to paper, handed copies from behind the curtain, to those who stood on the outside. Not a word, however, was said about the plates having been decyphered "by the gift of God." Everything, in this way, was effected by the large pair of spectacles. The farmer added, that he had been requested to contribute a sum of money towards the publication of the "golden book," the contents of which would, as he had been assured, produce an entire change in the world and save it from ruin. So urgent had been these solicitations, that he intended selling his farm and handing over the amount received to those who wished to publish the plates. As a last precautionary step, however, he had resolved to come to New York, and obtain the opinion of the learned about the meaning of the paper which he brought with him, and which had been given him as a part of the contents of the book, although no translation had been furnished at the time by the young man with the spectacles.

So we know the spectacles were too large to fit a human’s face, but they could fit into a stove-pipe hat. But what were these spectacles made of? Were they in fact the Urim Thummim? Consider this as previously quoted from FairMormon:

Did Joseph lose the seer stone(s) and/or the Urim and Thummim?
Following the loss of the 116 pages, the Lord told Joseph:
1 NOW, behold, I say unto you, that because you delivered up those writings which you had power given unto you to translate by the means of the Urim and Thummim, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them.
2 And you also lost your gift at the same time, and your mind became darkened.
3 Nevertheless, it is now restored unto you again; therefore see that you are faithful and continue on unto the finishing of the remainder of the work of translation as you have begun.
4 Do not run faster or labor more than you have strength and means provided to enable you to translate; but be diligent unto the end. (D&C 10:1-4)

If you believe what the D&C says in 10:1, then the “spectacles” were in fact two seer stones wired together. What we know for a fact is that the Mormon church portrays the translation of the Book of Mormon as done with spectacles, but we know for a fact that is not true and they were in fact the Seer Stones Joseph Smith found before he wrote the Book of Mormon ...the same stones he used to find buried treasure for hire... this is an absolute fact and you are being intentionally deceived by Wiki Wonka’s response that they had anything to do with Urim and Thummim, because they were only seer stones and nothing else.

[_moksha]

Ttribe on 06 April 2010 - 04:07 PM, said:

Ahhh, but they are "magic rocks" fastened in a bow attached to a breastplate. Naturally, that makes them much more acceptable than ones sitting in the bottom of a hat.

The Urim and Thummin of the Old Testament had two stones, with a Hebrew letter engraved on each side, attached with a bow to a breastplate. A breastplate is worn across the chest, not on the eyes.

[_thews]

Dear Wiki Wonka,

I would like to respectfully ask you a question. Why do you continue to use the name "Urim and Thummim" when the only devices used to translate Mormon doctrine (outside of the lost 116 pages) were Joseph Smith's seer stones?

Edit to add - the brown one and the white one.

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/ ... ge__st__40

I think that your assessment is pretty accurate, and I have observed a number of decent folks there. In my opinion, the difficulty for active believers who might like to have a respectful discussion there comes from having to deal with those who continually make mocking references to the Church (e.g. people incapable of referring to the Church without calling it "LDS Inc.," or disparaging references such as "Little Tommy Monson.") You cannot have a reasonable discussion with someone who speaks like that. If someone asks me a real question that is devoid of obvious mockery, no matter who they are, then I'm happy to respond to them in kind. If someone wishes to bait me using mockery, I'll simply not respond at all. I think that many active LDS simply don't want to have to deal with it.

WW

[_Brant Gardner]

Dear Wiki Wonka,

I would like to respectfully ask you a question. Why do you continue to use the name "Urim and Thummim" when the only devices used to translate Mormon doctrine (outside of the lost 116 pages) were Joseph Smith's seer stones?

The terms "Urim and Thummim" is used by tradition, a tradition that appears to have begun in 1833. The connection between both the interpreters and the seer stone used in translation was made about that time and became the popular way of referring to either. It found its way into Joseph's vocabulary as well.

With regards to your opening poll, I didn't answer because there isn't a response I can use. When Joseph found things with his stone when he functioned as a village seer, he did so the same way others who have used seer stones for that purpose have done. I don't see any particularly divine aspect to it. I also don't see anything "magical," save that is the label we have placed on the practice.

[_Wiki Wonka]

Dear Wiki Wonka,

I would like to respectfully ask you a question. Why do you continue to use the name "Urim and Thummim" when the only devices used to translate Mormon doctrine (outside of the lost 116 pages) were Joseph Smith's seer stones?

Edit to add - the brown one and the white one.

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/ ... ge__st__40

I think that your assessment is pretty accurate, and I have observed a number of decent folks there. In my opinion, the difficulty for active believers who might like to have a respectful discussion there comes from having to deal with those who continually make mocking references to the Church (e.g. people incapable of referring to the Church without calling it "LDS Inc.," or disparaging references such as "Little Tommy Monson.") You cannot have a reasonable discussion with someone who speaks like that. If someone asks me a real question that is devoid of obvious mockery, no matter who they are, then I'm happy to respond to them in kind. If someone wishes to bait me using mockery, I'll simply not respond at all. I think that many active LDS simply don't want to have to deal with it.

WW

Hi Thews,

I apologize for the delay in responding, but I didn't realize that you had asked me a question on this thread until just now when I noticed Brant's post. Brant is actually much more qualified to answer it than I am.

My understanding is that the term "Urim and Thummin" was applied by members of the Church years later, and that it was applied initially to the Nephite interpreters and then later to the seer stone used to translate the Book of Mormon. I believe that Oliver Cowdery was one of those who applied the term "Urim and Thummin" to refer to the translation process. This would indicate that he was referring to the seer stone, since that is what was being used at the time. Since Oliver didn't mention the seer stone explicitly, it can only be inferred.

WW

[_thews]

Hi Thews,

I apologize for the delay in responding, but I didn't realize that you had asked me a question on this thread until just now when I noticed Brant's post. Brant is actually much more qualified to answer it than I am.

My understanding is that the term "Urim and Thummin" was applied by members of the Church years later, and that it was applied initially to the Nephite interpreters and then later to the seer stone used to translate the Book of Mormon. I believe that Oliver Cowdery was one of those who applied the term "Urim and Thummin" to refer to the translation process. This would indicate that he was referring to the seer stone, since that is what was being used at the time. Since Oliver didn't mention the seer stone explicitly, it can only be inferred.

WW

Thanks WW for the response. I would love a reply of this question by Brant, as I don't understand it. My question centers on D&C 10 where it states the Urim and Thummim were "lost". Calling a seer stone the Urim and Thummim doesn't make sense to me as they were taken away as punishment, so there must have been two Urim's and Thummim's? From what I understand, after the Urim and Thummim were taken back after the lost 116 pages, seer stones were used after that. Is that a correct assumption? Thanks.

[_Brant Gardner]

My question centers on D&C 10 where it states the Urim and Thummim were "lost". Calling a seer stone the Urim and Thummim doesn't make sense to me as they were taken away as punishment, so there must have been two Urim's and Thummim's? From what I understand, after the Urim and Thummim were taken back after the lost 116 pages, seer stones were used after that. Is that a correct assumption? Thanks.

The original name for the instruments delivered with the plates was the "interpreters." Joseph had more than one seer stone prior to that time.

The name Urim and Thummim is obviously biblical, and the best information indicates it wasn't applied to the interpreters or the seer stone until W.W. Phelps made the comparison in 1833. After that time, it became the popular designation for the both the interpreters and the seer stone. The only way to know which of the instruments "Urim and Thummim" refers to is to know time tables.

Regardless of which of the two types of mechanical instruments used (interpreters or seer stones), it appears that the actual use of the instrument was fundamentally the same. From the view of the text produced, there was no difference in the instrument used.
It appears that the interpreters were used for the 116 pages (though I suspect not exclusively). A seer stone was used for the rest (meaning the text we now have) according to Emma.

[_SoHo]

My question centers on D&C 10 where it states the Urim and Thummim were "lost". Calling a seer stone the Urim and Thummim doesn't make sense to me as they were taken away as punishment, so there must have been two Urim's and Thummim's? From what I understand, after the Urim and Thummim were taken back after the lost 116 pages, seer stones were used after that. Is that a correct assumption? Thanks.

The original name for the instruments delivered with the plates was the "interpreters." Joseph had more than one seer stone prior to that time.

The name Urim and Thummim is obviously biblical, and the best information indicates it wasn't applied to the interpreters or the seer stone until W.W. Phelps made the comparison in 1833. After that time, it became the popular designation for the both the interpreters and the seer stone. The only way to know which of the instruments "Urim and Thummim" refers to is to know time tables.

Regardless of which of the two types of mechanical instruments used (interpreters or seer stones), it appears that the actual use of the instrument was fundamentally the same. From the view of the text produced, there was no difference in the instrument used.
It appears that the interpreters were used for the 116 pages (though I suspect not exclusively). A seer stone was used for the rest (meaning the text we now have) according to Emma.

When this information makes its way into Primary materials, then it will be easier to accept that the use of Urim and Thummim isn't simply intended to suggest a specific method of translation other than stone, head and hat.

[_Brant Gardner]

When this information makes its way into Primary materials, then it will be easier to accept that the use of Urim and Thummim isn't simply intended to suggest a specific method of translation other than stone, head and hat.

Wow, there is so much wrong is such a short statement.

Let's start with the implication that the reason that the Urim and Thummim is used is to suggest some means other than the rock in the hat. That tells me that you completely misunderstand the historical development that led to that association. By misunderstanding the original reason, you impute something to it that simply was never there.

Second, we have the suggestion that this information should make it into primary manuals. That tells me that you have two places where your logic has issues. The first is in the nature of primary education. There is quite a bit of information that I might teach adults that I don't find relevant to primary age students. Their needs are different. When you teach the message of the gospel, you teach the message, not the details. I do not teach primary age children the documentary hypothesis. I don't teach them issues of textual transmission in the Bible. That doesn't mean that I am hiding such complexities from them. It means that there are other things that are more important to learn first.

Next, we have the assumption that the rock in the hat method somehow alters the nature of the resulting translation. I am at a loss to know why or how. When Joseph said it happened by the gift and power of God, is that explanation altered by any aspect of the process? Do we need to make sure that we teach that Joseph of Egypt scryed in a cup? Is that aspect more important than his correct intepretation of dreams? Does that method alter his place in history (Biblical history here - we can argue secular history at a different time).