Book of Mormon as Literature

[_canterdogs]

Hi I'm canterdogs from Sydney Australia. I am a Protestant Christian.

I have been in dialogue with an Australian Mormon concerning literature style of the Book of Mormon and comparisons with the Bible. My initial point was that in the Bible we have a diversity of literary styles ranging from history to poetry to apocalypse to law to letters as well as the gospels and so on. I then made the point that in the Book of Mormon we don't have this sort of literary diversity. My LDS friend then gave me a number of passages from the Book of Mormon to read. And so I am in the process of doing this.

Additionally, I am aware of LDS scholarship identifying apparent Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon text such as chiasmus. And other Hebrew nuances that LDS scholars allege are in the Book of Mormon. I have yet to investigate such claims, but intend on looking into it.

In my reading of the Book of Mormon, however, there was one passage that seems to me to point very strongly towards a 19th century authorship of the book (I think that there are other things that point to a 19th century construction of the book, but this one is obvious in my opinion). The passage is 4 Nephi 1:17. It says the following:

"There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God."

"Nor any manner of -ites." This phrase strikes me as something that would be very unlikely to have occurred in ancient documents. Is there any scholarship or apologetic argument that explains this verse? Again, it seems very much out of place and, I think, seems to point to 19th century authorship of the book. Any thoughts?

[_MCB]

The general opinion of the members of this board is that you are right. Most of it is a product of the 18th century.

However, that is frequently debated here, since some members are very devout in believing that it is sacred scripture.

[_Paracelsus]

...
Additionally, I am aware of LDS scholarship identifying apparent Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon text such as chiasmus. And other Hebrew nuances that LDS scholars allege are in the Book of Mormon. I have yet to investigate such claims, but intend on looking into it.
...

LDS scholarship
- no such thing
LDS scholars
- an oxymoron

...
"Nor any manner of -ites." This phrase strikes me as something that would be very unlikely to have occurred in ancient documents. Is there any scholarship or apologetic argument that explains this verse? Again, it seems very much out of place and, I think, seems to point to 19th century authorship of the book. Any thoughts?

apologetic argument that explains this
- there are apologetic arguments that explain everything (see "horses are tapirs")




FYI

[_Joseph]

US pundit and author Mark Twain described the Book of Mormon best: Chloroform in print.

[_Noah]

"Nor any manner of -ites." This phrase strikes me as something that would be very unlikely to have occurred in ancient documents. Is there any scholarship or apologetic argument that explains this verse? Again, it seems very much out of place and, I think, seems to point to 19th century authorship of the book. Any thoughts?

Hi,

Well from a Mormon viewpoint I would say that of course it seems to point to a 19th century authorship. It was written in English in 1830. "-ite" is a suffix, Greek, pertaining to people who belong to something. I'm pretty sure the Hebrew language have suffixes as well that can mean the same thing. I would then imagine you could separate the suffix and use it in like manner in Hebrew or any language with that suffix, but I'm no linguistic or scholar (OF course scholars wouldn't waste their time on unproven languages and histories). The Book of Mormon claims to have been originally written in a "reformed Egyptian". Anyway to do that seems like bad language all around when they could have said something much simpler, but that's the Book of Mormon for you :). I looked up that verse in the original transcript, and it reads,

"There were no robbers, nor no murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor no manner of Ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God:"

That's confusing, "Nor No", isn't that a double negative? "Ites" seems a bit more appropriate with how it's being used than "-ites" but again I'm no expert. And wouldn't "the children of Christ" be counted as an Ite even though they were the only one? So the whole statement is a contradiction anyway. Also I remember reading an article about a lecture or class where they discussed the Book of Mormon as literature whether it be true or not. I can't remember where or by whom though...

cheers to my first post ;P

[_Spider-to-the-Fly]

canterdogs,

How is the Archbishop? Give him my regards, please.

The Book of Mormon as literature? I am afraid that I cannot use the term literature so nonchalantly. Reading the Book of Mormon, well it's like having one's tooth pulled in the surgery without Novocaine.

My old copy of the Book of Mormon is to balance the drawing table in the study.

Keep a stiff upper lip, canterdogs.

[_Joseph]

Batman comic books as literature makes more sense.

[_moksha]

"Nor any manner of -ites." This phrase strikes me as something that would be very unlikely to have occurred in ancient documents. Is there any scholarship or apologetic argument that explains this verse? Again, it seems very much out of place and, I think, seems to point to 19th century authorship of the book. Any thoughts?

The immediate explanation is that this is a rendering into 19th Century English of some roughly analogous concept from the times of the Book of Mormon. Since adherence to various tribes, groups and beliefs have been around for a long time, there must have been some way to describe it.

[_jskains]

All passages were translated, and we have to assume there are a LOT of modern language substitutions. If any form of Egyptian were translated, the author would be required to take a wide range of artistic licenses to pull the language into an accessible work.

In Germany, one could say "Does your bird peep". That asks if your crazy. So you could translate that sentence more indirectly to "Are you nuts??"

Then you could argue, "wait a moment, they didn't use nuts enough for it to be part of their culture!!!" or "That statement is too modern!"

But the meaning is there.

JMS

[_MCB]

And my contention is that one cannot derive any positive insights from the Book of Mormon without referring to the texts from which it was borrowed. And that happened when it was written in 1829. We cannot walk across such a gulf in beliefs, although I see no reason for heated arguments and adolescent name-calling.