Map of the Comoros Islands, circa 1812

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_moksha
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Re: Map of the Comoros Islands, circa 1812

Post by _moksha »

Phaedrus Ut wrote:in my opinion, the Comoros/Moroni connection is likely nothing more than coincidence. It seems a little but obscure for someone to decide to directly borrow the two together.

Phaedrus


I thought these were names out of news stories speculating about the adventures of Captain Kidd and his buried treasure. The kind of stuff that captures the imagination of young men thinking about gold.
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_karl61
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Re: Map of the Comoros Islands, circa 1812

Post by _karl61 »

I think the Lemba tribe are in that area too.
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Re: Map of the Comoros Islands, circa 1812

Post by _Occams Motorola »

It seems just obscure enough to be useful to a man creating a religion, IMHO.

Regarding Onandagus, this cannot be qualified as a 'hit,' as this tribe as one of the Iroquois would be well-known, especially by local New Yorkers, in Joseph's day.

It really takes some gymnastic contortions to brush off Moroni / Comoros as coincidence and yet accept Nahum / Nhm as a 'hit.'
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Re: Map of the Comoros Islands, circa 1812

Post by _Thexriddle »

Some nuggets... or would they be coprolites? Depends on your point of view, I guess...
Joseph Smith -> Salem
he now began to recover and when go he was able to travel his un he went with his uncle Jesse Smith to Salem for the benefit of his health hoping that the sea breezes might help him in this we were not disapointed for he soon became strong and healthy


From the Salem , Massachusetts web page
http://www.salemweb.com/tales/eastindiamarinehall.shtml

The reopening of the stunning "new" Peabody Essex Museum in June 2003 calls to mind another related event that took place in 1825 -- the completion and dedication of the oldest of the PEM's gallery buildings, the East India Marine Hall.

The hall was a by-product of the East India Marine Society, which was organized in 1799 and incorporated early in the following year. Membership was limited to ships' masters or supercargos who had sailed around either Cape Horn or the Cape of Good Hope.

The purposes of the society were to share navigation information relating to the East Indies; to provide benefits to members who had been disabled or to the families of members who had died; and "to form a Museum of natural and artificial curiosities, particularly such as are to be found beyond the Cape of Good Hope or Cape Horn."

The collecting of curiosities would create an ongoing space problem for the East India Marine Society. The organization initially rented rooms in the Stearns Block in Town House Square, but their stay there was short-lived. As the number of donated items grew, the group began looking for larger quarters. In 1804 the society moved into the Salem Bank Building on Essex Street, just west of the future East India Marine Hall.

By 1824 the collections of the East India Marine Society had grown to nearly 3,000 items, and Dr. Seth Bass had been hired to organize and oversee the diverse inventory. Visitors flocked to the Essex Street museum to see war clubs, masks and costumes from far-away island kingdoms; models and paintings of local ships; and even a coffee cup and saucer once owned by Napoleon Bonaparte.

Desperately in need of more space, members of the East India Marine Society formed a separate corporation for the purpose of erecting a facility to house the society's collections. The society itself had first option on the 150 shares in the new corporation; the rest were offered to members and interested citizens.

Construction of the 100-by-45-foot granite building was completed by October of 1825. The identity of the architect who designed the new hall is still a mystery today.

The stunning new East India Marine Hall was dedicated on Oct. 14, 1825. On hand for the festivities were President John Quincy Adams, Boston Mayor Josiah Quincy and Harvard President Kirkland. Salem's own Joseph Story, associate justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, and Timothy Pickering also participated in the dedication day events.



Book on The Salem India Story by Dr. Vanita Shastri released on April 18, 2009 - By Shuchita Rao

New England celebrity high-tech entrepreneur Desh Deshpande released a book written by Dr. Vanita Shastri entitled “Salem India Story – Maritime trade between Salem and India: 1788-1845” in an elegant ceremony on Saturday, April 18, 2009 at the National Heritage Museum in Lexington.

Dr. Deshpande congratulated Vanita Shastri and commented that apart from pretty fonts and attractive illustrations, the book was essentially a well-told story. “I hope to see more books by Vanita Shastri in the future” said Dr. Deshpande.

The fifteen chapter book on Maritime trade is the story of how international trade began and declined between Salem, MA in the U.S.A and India in the years 1788-1845. It is filled with interesting details about the trade route, the ships that traveled to India, the goods traded between the U.S and India and how global trade connections were a source of livelihood and prosperity for sailor families that lived in Salem as well as businessmen living in India. It is designed to be a self contained unit on maritime history intended to be part of the secondary school social studies curriculum.

The Salem India Story book has been released under the Meru Education Foundation banner and the publication has been supported by Chancellor's public service fund and UMass Pubic service endowment. Saluni Fadia who supported the publication of the book via a grant from the Prashant H. Fadia foundation introduced the author, Dr. Vanita Shastri, Ph.D. who did her graduate studies in Political Science from Cornell University to the audience. The book release event began with a short documentary film on Meru Education Foundation's activities and ended with a reception and book signing by the author. Over 100 people attended the event.

Shuchita Rao spoke to the author, Dr. Vanita Shastri about her book.

Q. Dr. Vanita Shastri, Congratulations on the book release. What prompted you to write a book about maritime trade between Salem, MA and India in the years 1788-1845?

The book came out of our work in bringing the study of India into the classrooms. We developed a lesson plan for each grade from K-12, in accordance with the social studies curriculum; but for grades where students study US history or Massachusetts history: to bring something on India was a challenge.

It was then that I came upon the trade between Salem MA and India (in the 18th Cent.) through a research project that my daughter was doing for her high school history paper.

The topic was most appropriate and I began to research it in greater detail. This process led me to discover several interesting facts about the trade between India and Salem MA during 1788-1845.

Some of these were that during this period, a large number of sailors from Salem routinely went to trade with India. They took mostly hard currency to India to buy goods there. In the process of this trade a large number of pieces of art, including paintings and sculpture came to the US. To display this art, the sailors established the first surviving museum of United States in Salem, which we all know today as the Peabody Essex Museum. The original hall the sailors built in 1824 was called the “East India Marine Hall” and the name inscribed on the wall of the museum in Salem is visible even today!

I wanted to share this information with others, especially children and educate them about the historic background of the relations between India and the United States. I think this global exchange of goods and ideas has a special impact on the history of both the countries.

Q. Please describe how you pursued researching on the topic and what resources you used to unravel the facts and details of what appears to have been a flourishing trade in the18th century?

I read every published book about this trade in various libraries, did research in Salem, MA at the Phyllis Library at the Peabody Essex Museum and the National Archives in Waltham.

An interesting fact is that this trade was happening before the emergence of lighthouses, so every sailor going out on these ships was given a journal in which they were asked to write about the shoreline, giving directions to others following them. Once they began writing, the sailors also wrote of their experiences in India. These original, handwritten journals and letters are available in libraries at Harvard and in Salem which I used extensively and have quoted from in the book. The other amazing source was the National Archives that has original documents from these ships. The published materials were very useful as well, including Yankee India brought out by PEM and numerous other books in the libraries of Salem and the Essex County.


The Comoros provided a rest stop for the ship crews and an opportunity to trade and carry trade goods to India from the Comoro natives.
I have attempted to insert an image showing the Mozambique channel trade route to India passing through the Comoro Island group but I'm not sure whether the link will work after I have submitted the post. In addition, I have an image of an 1861 report of a British ship signing an agreement with the Sultan of Muroni(or Maroni, as it is spelled in the same document) where the Sultan agreed to halt the slave trade to the Comoros.
https://publish.comcast.net/modal_windo ... 23kj1d6aDE

In a related vein, there was an interesting record of a group of children finding jewelry and a number of gold watches that had been stolen in Salem and hidden in a hole.

From the Diary Of William Bentley D. D. Salem April 1807

20. Yesterday at noon were found by some boys in the fields in
a hole under ground the remainder of the Watches & jewelry which
several months ago were taken from the shop of Mr. Baldwin, jeweler
& Watchmaker. These articles were chiefly of gold & not so
much injured as was expected. The silver articles were found in the
Hospital in Great Pasture. This evening at the East School a mel-
' ancholy event arrested great attention. During the shower some
girls, 7 in number, passed into the necessary & from some cause unknown
the floor fell into the Vault and one of the girls was drowned
before relief could be obtained. The others suffered no apparent injury.
22. The Jewelry, &c. found last Sunday in Northfields in the
trunk of a tree were stolen 24 Oct. 1805. The watches were thrust
into a decayed trunk & then a box of jewelry & then leaves. The
children thought they saw a squirrel enter the hole & pulled out the
leaves to discover him. The Gold watches were 21 with other
watches with Jewelry. They had lain 19 months. The other part
found in the hospital was silver & the division in value nearly equal
which leads to a suspicion of accomplices. What is singular, the
whole in amount between 2 & 3 thousand dollars is recovered without
leaving the rogues one dollar.


No doubt this incident became a staple in the conversations of young treasure hunters in Salem...
Cf. Joseph Capron's affidavit.

Disclaimer: No polemical responses, please. I am not promoting a theory- just providing some information for the enlightenment of all interested parties.
12th MAY 1984 FREEDOM IS THE FREEDOM to say Two plus Two EQUALS FOUR. If that is granted, all else follows.
-The diary of Winston Smith
_Simon Belmont

Re: Map of the Comoros Islands, circa 1812

Post by _Simon Belmont »

Oh, Shades got smacked on that one!
_Mary
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Re: Map of the Comoros Islands, circa 1812

Post by _Mary »

I started a thread on this over at the Mad Board a while back...

I'm not so sure that the link between Comoros and Moroni is pure coincidence. I keep an open mind about it. The maritime links (obvious to others but not to me when I first came across the information) at least suggests that there were many opportunities to glean information on 'far flung' places from his relatives and contemporary society.

His uncles (and grandparent if I remember rightly) were privateers (pirates) and it is not unreasonable to assume that the whole area of piracy, Captain Kydd, and travels to far flung places might occupy the mind of a young and highly imaginative boy like Joseph.

Yo-ho-ho and a Bottle of Rum
Privateers were a special brand of pirate supported by the government who had permission to "pirate" ships. They were given papers to verify their identity as official privateers. These letters protected them from punishment in the event of capture by their own government, but they were walking on the wild side. (It seems that Captain Kidd, a British privateer, learned that the hard way.)

When a sailor was to go to sea on a privateering vessel, he could apply to the government for a "Letter of Marque," a document which served as a protection against being prosecuted by his own government as a pirate, should his ship be captured in questionable circumstances. A lot could change politically between launch and return to home port. Also, many privateers and West Indies traders flew false flags and carried sets of false papers, so it was easy to make a serious mistake. A Letter of Marque was, in fact, a kind of hunting license since traditionally all aboard a privateering vessel would receive some predetermined portion of the booty of any enemy or pirate vessel captured and brought in.

We know from his own narrative that Solomon Mack (See below.) our first Marlow citizen, and two of his sons served aboard a privateering vessel. Solomon Mack describes himself at one point in his narrative as a "privateer," and other Marlow men may have been engaged in that dangerous game. Privateers operated during the French and Indian Wars, the Revolutionary War, and the War of 1812 against enemy ships and in-between against "real" pirates who preyed largely on West Indies traders. It seems to be a distinction without a difference.

No wonder molasses is such a common ingredient in New England recipes and soldiers during the French and Indian Wars and Revolutionary War were regularly issued rum! Plenty of rum was available for trade with the Indians, leading to problems which still haunt us today. And somehow, even in the eighteenth century frontier outpost of Marlow, on a special occasion such as the killing of a bear, "spirits" were produced as if by magic, and it wasn't always hemlock bark beer. The accounts of Marlow's first storekeeper, Nichodemus Miller (See above.) show a prodigious amount of rum sold in the 1760's and 1770's. Consider what it means that common ingredients in New England baking are cinnamon, nutmeg, ginger, and molasses! Let's explore this connection between Marlow and the coastal trade.


http://www.squidoo.com/marlowhistorynh
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_moksha
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Re: Map of the Comoros Islands, circa 1812

Post by _moksha »

maklelan wrote:
Still wasn't the capitol, which is why it doesn't appear on any maps that would have been available to Joseph Smith, and why it's silly to insist it would have been a well-known toponym.



Still, Moroni according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica was founded by Arabic-speaking settlers as early as the 10th Century and could well be suspected as the site of buried gold and other booty by Captain Kidd in popular folk tales of that time.
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_colbytownsend
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Re: Map of the Comoros Islands, circa 1812

Post by _colbytownsend »

a
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_moksha
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Re: Map of the Comoros Islands, circa 1812

Post by _moksha »

colbytownsend wrote:Today Los Angeles has millions of people and is a huge landmark on a map, which is very different in comparison to Moroni at the time spoken of. Maybe if you were to bring up Malad, Idaho, I could see that being similar.


I've seen a world map that lists Honolulu as the only city in Hawaii.
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_colbytownsend
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Re: Map of the Comoros Islands, circa 1812

Post by _colbytownsend »

moksha wrote:
I've seen a world map that lists Honolulu as the only city in Hawaii.


Do you know of any maps that show Moroni on the Comoros Islands though from the time of Joseph Smith?
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