Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

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_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »

I am sure you can search google books for the whole contra-Mormon body of literature, as well as literature with parallels with the Book of Mormon. There is a wealth of information available, if you just get up the courage to look for it. You ignore it at your peril.


I can assure you that I have been exposed to a plethora of contra-Mormon literature. Most of it is so riddled with inaccuracies and outright falsehoods as to make it a poor reference for anyone doing honest research on the LDS religion. Those who accept it uncritically do not do well in discussions with the apologetic community.

But that really has nothing to do with the OP of this thread. would you care to provide us with your critique of Bruce's paper? Unless you are someone else can come up with a fatal flaw in his logic or his math, all of the information you are gathering on Spalding and Rigdon and the correlations you are doing are meaningless because, as it stands, Bruce's paper effectively eliminates Spalding and Rigdon, among others, as possible authors of any parts of the Book of Mormon.

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Uncle Dale »

GlennThigpen wrote:...Bruce's paper effectively eliminates Spalding and Rigdon, among others, as possible authors of any parts of the Book of Mormon.
...


This is precisely the claim I wish to consider.

Do you have access to the full data behind his "Figure 11" charts?

Dale
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »

Uncle Dale wrote:
GlennThigpen wrote:...Bruce's paper effectively eliminates Spalding and Rigdon, among others, as possible authors of any parts of the Book of Mormon.
...


This is precisely the claim I wish to consider.

Do you have access to the full data behind his "Figure 11" charts?

Dale



I have only the information that is in the article. You might be able to get it from Bruce. You can find his email address on the BYU web site.

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
_harmony
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _harmony »

GlennThigpen wrote:would you care to provide us with your critique of Bruce's paper?


So... Bruce has something else of God's to compare authorship? What is that?
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »

harmony wrote:
GlennThigpen wrote:would you care to provide us with your critique of Bruce's paper?


So... Bruce has something else of God's to compare authorship? What is that?



You would have to read the paper. Maybe you could do the critique?

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
_harmony
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _harmony »

GlennThigpen wrote:You would have to read the paper. Maybe you could do the critique?

Glenn


The point, dear Glenn, is that if God didn't write the Book of Mormon, a man did. And if a man wrote it, it doesn't really matter who that was.

So what else that God supposedly wrote does Bruce compare the Book of Mormon with?

And no, I'm not going to read the paper.

If you can't answer, I'll understand.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »

harmony wrote:
GlennThigpen wrote:You would have to read the paper. Maybe you could do the critique?

Glenn


The point, dear Glenn, is that if God didn't write the Book of Mormon, a man did. And if a man wrote it, it doesn't really matter who that was.


I think that you are a bit off there. The Book of Mormon does not claim that it was written by God himself, but for the most part, ancient prophets called by God, much as the Bible was written. So it does matter which man or men wrote the Book of Mormon.
The original Jockers study concluded that it was written by several nineteenth century men. Bruce's paper corrects several flaws in the original Jockers study and the results eliminate any of the candidates in the original Jockers study as feasible candidates.

So what else that God supposedly wrote does Bruce compare the Book of Mormon with?

And no, I'm not going to read the paper.

If you can't answer, I'll understand.


I have replied, but if you do not read the paper, you be unable to make an informed assessment.

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
_Benjamin McGuire
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

MCB writes:
And literature available in 1829 and 1815, you ignore and do not address. There is a plethora of parallels available in such literature. The Book of Mormon is an invention.
I haven't ignored it. The problem you have MCB (you like those who have gone before) is that most parallels are completely meaningless - they are merely coincidental. This is something that is widely recognized in scholarly literature and has been for the past century. The book I mentioned earlier has quite a bit to say about the use of parallels for authorship attribution - but he goes on to caution: "Now that the capacity to multiply parallels - most of which will be misleading - is almost unlimited, intelligent selectivity has never been more important. (p. 90)" If Shakespeare had read even a fraction of the works that he has claimed to have borrowed from, he would never have had time to actually write. You suggest that the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction - if so, then shouldn't normal literary scholarship be applied to it? If you want to show that the parallels between the Book of Mormon and other texts are significant, don't you think that current accepted models of literary scholarship should be applied to demonstrate this? I do.

One of the things I have done is to show repeatedly in this forum and in others that the similarities that are touted between the Book of Mormon and Spalding's extent work do not rise above a level of mere coincidence.

Ben McGuire
_Benjamin McGuire
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

Harmony writes:
The point, dear Glenn, is that if God didn't write the Book of Mormon, a man did. And if a man wrote it, it doesn't really matter who that was.

So what else that God supposedly wrote does Bruce compare the Book of Mormon with?
I think this is a rather facile, and not very useful point. Speech act theory (which includes written works) can divide the act of production of a speech act into several parts. Goffman, in his book Forms of Talk broke it into three useful roles - 1) the animator - the person who is actually speaking, or writing, 2) the author - the person who is composing what is said or written, and 3) the principal - the person whose ideas and beliefs are being expressed and who is ostensibly the authority behind the text.

Usually, all of these roles are played by the same person. But this isn't always the case. A classic example of this might occur if the President of the U.S. had to deliver a speech. The President is the principal, while his speechwriter is the author, and supposing he had a scheduling conflict and arranged for the Vice President to deliver it on his behalf, the Vice President would then become the animator. Three separate roles played by three individuals. I suspect that were we to start considering the many different (and probably obscure) circumstances in which speech acts are made, we could further expand these three roles into as many as we want to create. And if we look at the Book of Mormon - depending on your view (as a believer of course) - we could be quite narrow and specific as to the role that God filled in the creation of the text of the English Book of Mormon. It doesn't hurt for us to be specific here.

You suggest that God "wrote" the Book of Mormon - but clearly, God didn't "write it". We might say that Joseph's scribes did all the writing (and be accurate in saying that). We might say that Nephi, Jacob, et al., "wrote" the Book of Mormon (and we might be reflecting a believer's point of view quite accurately in saying that - without also contradicting the fact that Joseph's scribes also wrote it). At most, the only role God plays in the process is in the so-called translation. Believers see God interacting only in a very limited way in the production of the Book of Mormon (and of course, for those that have even considered it, there is this difference between those who favor a loose translation and those who favor a tight translation). So even in this limited role, God's impact falls into a spectrum of opinions.

So, even if we decide that a man wrote the Book of Mormon in some sense (or even in multiple senses), I think it doesn't change the discussion much at all from the perspective of a believer - partly because we believe from the outset that men are largely responsible for the book, for the original gold plates, for nearly ever part of the process (historical and modern) which was required to provide us with this book.

On the other hand, the question is a much larger issue for the book's critics in many ways. They already know God wasn't involved at all. But, until recently really, they refused to interact with each other. In many ways, they took a position much like yours. The question of how the Book of Mormon was produced wasn't really an issue, it was always about challenging the faith. But the various critical camps cannot all be right. And most of the holders of these views - when it comes right down to it - were more interested in dealing only with the believers as opposed to critics with exclusive points of view. In other words, it didn't really matter as long it was agreed that a man (and not God) wrote the book. And often this set such a low evidentiary bar that bad arguments had become quite commonplace. That is, if all you have to do is to compete with the angel, than almost anything you provide will be better than that. But, as I noted, this has changed quite a bit in the last couple of years.

Whether we go with MCB and figure that we merely need to finesse the data and manipulate it until we get the 'right' result, or we side with the other group in the notion that clearly these stylometric approaches fail because of the nature of the text for one or more reasons, I think we will continue to see discussion on this topic for quite some time. I think that there has always been some hope by many believers that it would reveal something interesting that could be used as some kind of proof, but I am fairly confident that stylometric analysis will not provide us with something of that nature.

Ben McGuire
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _MCB »

The problem you have MCB (you like those who have gone before) is that most parallels are completely meaningless - they are merely coincidental. This is something that is widely recognized in scholarly literature and has been for the past century. The book I mentioned earlier has quite a bit to say about the use of parallels for authorship attribution -
The use of parallels does not necessarily prove authorship. It, however, can be used as a cue for authorship research.

The massive number of parallels in the Book of Mormon with literature available in the 1815-1829 time period reveals the cultural context of the book. It is clearly nineteenth century literature. Even Biblical language and content reveals this.
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

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