Buffalo wrote:Perhaps the leaders of the church should seek to be more humble and accept criticism.
Whose to say they can't accept criticism? You? Okay. Perhaps they can accept criticism and are even more humble then you, but see it as a pointless endeavor by people who think they know tons but actually don't? We may never know...but you guys will continue to claim you do know it seems. Why is that?
Love ya tons, Stem
I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
Buffalo wrote:Perhaps the leaders of the church should seek to be more humble and accept criticism.
Whose to say they can't accept criticism? You? Okay. Perhaps they can accept criticism and are even more humble then you, but see it as a pointless endeavor by people who think they know tons but actually don't? We may never know...but you guys will continue to claim you do know it seems. Why is that?
Members are expected to accept criticism and correction. Why not the church leadership?
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Buffalo wrote:Members are expected to accept criticism and correction. Why not the church leadership?
Oh I'd imagine many reasons--too busy, these criticism often become non-ending wiffs at the air which in the critics minds are somehow homeruns so they maintain the illogical to, seemingly, fro the sake of a fight, its not helping the people who need help the most, the answers or ideas expressed concerning criticisms are already addressed by others...they just have to find them etc.
Love ya tons, Stem
I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
Buffalo wrote:Members are expected to accept criticism and correction. Why not the church leadership?
Oh I'd imagine many reasons--too busy, these criticism often become non-ending wiffs at the air which in the critics minds are somehow homeruns so they maintain the illogical to, seemingly, fro the sake of a fight, its not helping the people who need help the most, the answers or ideas expressed concerning criticisms are already addressed by others...they just have to find them etc.
Too busy for self-improvement? Such behavior speaks of excessive pride. Don't you agree?
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Buffalo wrote:Too busy for self-improvement? Such behavior speaks of excessive pride. Don't you agree?
I didn't say they are too busy for self-improvement. But, in principal, no I woudln't agree that being too busy for self-improvement speaks of excessive pride. Perhaps excessive giving to others in favor of taking care of self, but not pride. More to the point, they probably are too busy to sit around and listen to the ideas of critics, which ideas probably don't amount to much more than "you're wrong so do something better, even if I don't know what that something is". I don't know if that's what would turn up on this, but it sounds about like that so far.
Love ya tons, Stem
I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
Buffalo wrote:Too busy for self-improvement? Such behavior speaks of excessive pride. Don't you agree?
I didn't say they are too busy for self-improvement. But, in principal, no I woudln't agree that being too busy for self-improvement speaks of excessive pride. Perhaps excessive giving to others in favor of taking care of self, but not pride. More to the point, they probably are too busy to sit around and listen to the ideas of critics, which ideas probably don't amount to much more than "you're wrong so do something better, even if I don't know what that something is". I don't know if that's what would turn up on this, but it sounds about like that so far.
If a Joseph Smith had encountered an individual with this attitude you are ascribing to the church, he would have called that individual to repentance.
The reason why the church is so slow to correct its mistakes is because it refuses to listen to outside voices until the PR consequences are dire.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Buffalo wrote:If a Joseph Smith had encountered an individual with this attitude you are ascribing to the church, he would have called that individual to repentance.
The guy who seems to hate Joseph Smith the most wishes to speak on his behalf, huh?
The reason why the church is so slow to correct its mistakes is because it refuses to listen to outside voices until the PR consequences are dire.
CFR. So which mind are you reading now? the Church's?
Love ya tons, Stem
I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
What would involve the undertaking of personally, and as a group, putting forward a project and goal toward the above agenda?
I kinda liked the "start your own church" response. I'm not really sure what your asking for. I'm not sure what kind of wishful thinking would need to be had to think you should try and reform the church to suit your agenda. In effect, your proposal is nothing more than trying to call some shots. I hope you form a church and find success in it. It'd be interesting.
You scoff at starting a church, but God is an all time best seller.
ShadowFax wrote:It seems that engaging Daniel Peterson in a public debate of the type I'm suggesting wouldn't be a productive use of anyones time.
I think we can agree on that, though probably for different reasons.
Buffalo wrote:When you stop speaking for the church, you'll know it.
I know it. That's why I said that I don't speak for the Church.
Buffalo wrote:Can you provide an example where you've engaged in a public discussion of real problems in the church (as in, problems with current church practice or doctrine, not problems in reaching conversion numbers or tithing goals.
Sheesh. You can read through a few thousand of my message board posts and find any number of such discussions.
And most of my life is lived off of message boards.
The bishop in this case seems not to understand his own role in church. He has the ability to stress the positive benefits of obedience to God's laws rather than preaching hell fire and brimstone for disobedience.
The church's "attitude can be summed up in the following scripture: "Doctrine and Covenants Section 130 - 20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated."
The bishop seems to be advocating sin without guilt or accountability, which is not the way God operates.
All of the counseling I have received over the years has been designed to help me to understand and achieve the goals implicit in my membership in the church. To not try to understand just what I should be doing and not trying to achieve those goals would just be wasting my time. But I really have nothing better to do.
Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39