UFO: The Greatest Story Ever Denied.

[_Quasimodo]

I have never denied the existence of unidentified flying objects. I am just waiting for that evidence for such objects to be positively identified as extraterrestrial to present itself.

Me too! It's just another thing that I put in my ever growing category of "I don't know". I used to know lots of stuff. I don't know much anymore. :)

I'm willing to have an open mind about this stuff. I do have some problems with the video, though.

[_Ray A]

However, my interest in this thread is purely about the striking similarities in apologetics for different beliefs, in this case between ufology and Mopologetics.

You have not established any "striking similarities", and I've given you evidence to the contrary.

[_Ray A]

Ms. Kean writes in her book, “the application of science demands that at present we be agnostic about whether any UFOs have any extraterrestrial origin, neither believing nor rejecting this.”

Yet, in her ExopoliticsTV interview with Alfred Lambremont Webre, Ms. Kean states she is not aware of reliable whistleblower or documentary evidence of anti-gravity UFOs of U.S. military intelligence. However, she states, she is open to reviewing substantial and reliable evidence of U.S. black budget anti-gravity UFOs if that is made available to her.

Oh, I see. I am a blind, dogmatic skeptic when I say this, but she is not.

You are. You haven't even finished the linked video and you have already drawn conclusions. People with open minds don't say they things like evidence for UFOs might be found "in Zarahemla". You are not agnostic, you formed a conclusion about what's possible, or not possible, before you looked at anything.

And here's another example:

And to think that that was just 13 years ago, too!

How many more decades do you estimate it will be before this "pressure" reaches critical mass?

Does that sound like an "open mind" to anyone?

Project Blue Book was a farce. A cover-up for what's really going on. Calls to re-open Congressional hearings are on-going.

[_Darth J]

So you were just making sweeping assertions about UFO citings in general attempting to bolster the likelihood that you could possibly have determined how fast what you saw was going?

That is your mind reading, and a wrong assumption. Totally wrong.

All right. When I am trying to figure out what your unclear statements and allusions to other things in the guise of relating personal experience means, I am trying to engage in "mind reading."

Do you feel prepared to explain is that different from standard Mopologist operating procedure?

From your blog:

"Now to this day I do not know what those craft were A very sophisticated laser-beam effect isn’t out of the question, I suppose, and I’m prepared to wear a few hot-curried scrambled eggs on my face if that were the case.."

What you're trying to do is a subtle shift in the burden of proof, because you are implying that the null hypothesis is that space creatures were flying a vehicle of some kind. That's what I mean by magical thinking. You insist that "I don't have sufficient information to determine what you think you saw" is equivalent to an admission that this was in fact a vehicle piloted by space aliens.

This is going in unproductive circles. I couldn't see whether the heads poking out the windows and yelling "hello" were aliens or humans. I've already stated the implications if it was piloted by humans (see above).

A very sophisticated laser beam effect piloted by humans?

There is not a single fact you provide in your account from which you could have determined the height or distance of any of these things. You would have to know that to know those things to determine the speed of objects in the sky.

Here we go again.

So what factual basis do you have for determining the distance from you, the elevation, and the size of what may have been a very sophisticated laser beam effect?

I have never disputed that you saw something unusual for which there is insufficient data to make a conclusion.

Then let me ask you again:

What did we see?!

You provide a theory. You have diagrams from my blog, so surely you can come up with something.

Yep, it's that consistent shifting the burden of proof.

Just like Mormon apologetics.

The diagrams from your blog provide no information from which you could have determined the data you would need to make accurate determinations of speed.

If you really, really insist that I come up with something, then I will venture that a very sophisticated laser-beam effect isn’t out of the question.

[_Ray A]

Let me help you some more:

Ms. Kean writes in her book, “the application of science demands that at present we be agnostic about whether any UFOs have any extraterrestrial origin, neither believing nor rejecting this.”

Yet, in her ExopoliticsTV interview with Alfred Lambremont Webre, Ms. Kean states she is not aware of reliable whistleblower or documentary evidence of anti-gravity UFOs of U.S. military intelligence. However, she states, she is open to reviewing substantial and reliable evidence of U.S. black budget anti-gravity UFOs if that is made available to her.

(Emphasis added)

Sure, it's very surprising that CIA intelligence with information not even accessible by a US president will willing hand over classified documents to Ms. Kean!

[_Darth J]

Ms. Kean writes in her book, “the application of science demands that at present we be agnostic about whether any UFOs have any extraterrestrial origin, neither believing nor rejecting this.”

Yet, in her ExopoliticsTV interview with Alfred Lambremont Webre, Ms. Kean states she is not aware of reliable whistleblower or documentary evidence of anti-gravity UFOs of U.S. military intelligence. However, she states, she is open to reviewing substantial and reliable evidence of U.S. black budget anti-gravity UFOs if that is made available to her.

Oh, I see. I am a blind, dogmatic skeptic when I say this, but she is not.

You are. You haven't even finished the linked video and you have already drawn conclusions. People with open minds don't say they things like evidence for UFOs might be found "in Zarahemla". You are not agnostic, you formed a conclusion about what's possible, or not possible, before you looked at anything.

The defintion of "agnostic" is that one has not formed a conclusion.

And I have made no conclusion about the whole video. Just the parts I have seen, which is up to the Battle of Los Angeles. As I said, though, the producers fabricating a recorded voice purporting to be General MacArthur saying something that he never actually said was not helpful for their credibility.

And here's another example:

And to think that that was just 13 years ago, too!

How many more decades do you estimate it will be before this "pressure" reaches critical mass?

Does that sound like an "open mind" to anyone?

Project Blue Book was a farce. A cover-up for what's really going on. Calls to re-open Congressional hearings are on-going.

I am very aware that it is ufologist dogma that anything the government says is a lie unless the government admits what ufologists believe.

Calls to re-open Congressional hearings have indeed been ongoing. And look how effective those calls have been.

By the way, do you happen to know offhand how many people have been prosecuted and/or imprisoned for leaking allegedly "top secret" UFO information? That's what is happening right now with the WikiLeaks founder, because he leaked real classified information.

[_Ray A]

A very sophisticated laser beam effect piloted by humans?

So what factual basis do you have for determining the distance from you, the elevation, and the size of what may have been a very sophisticated laser beam effect?

Don't put words into my mouth. It was a possibility I explored, which does not explain the metallic look of the craft. I have since discounted that theory.

It strikes me you're just playing your phony lawyer games.

Yep, it's that consistent shifting the burden of proof.

Just like Mormon apologetics.

The diagrams from your blog provide no information from which you could have determined the data you would need to make accurate determinations of speed.

If you really, really insist that I come up with something, then I will venture that a very sophisticated laser-beam effect isn’t out of the question.

Demonstrate it on diagram. Show how this would work, including reproducing a metallic look.

[_Darth J]

Let me help you some more:

Ms. Kean writes in her book, “the application of science demands that at present we be agnostic about whether any UFOs have any extraterrestrial origin, neither believing nor rejecting this.”

Yet, in her ExopoliticsTV interview with Alfred Lambremont Webre, Ms. Kean states she is not aware of reliable whistleblower or documentary evidence of anti-gravity UFOs of U.S. military intelligence. However, she states, she is open to reviewing substantial and reliable evidence of U.S. black budget anti-gravity UFOs if that is made available to her.

(Emphasis added)

Sure, it's very surprising that CIA intelligence with information not even accessible by a US president will willing hand over classified documents to Ms. Kean!

That is surprising, isn't it?

It's also surprising that these people leaking allegedly classified information aren't being prosecuted.

And it's even more surprising that there is such a thing as intelligence information not accessible to a sitting U.S. president.

It's almost like people are just telling stories and claiming without evidence that their hearsay and uncorroborated anecdotes are classified.

[_Darth J]

A very sophisticated laser beam effect piloted by humans?

So what factual basis do you have for determining the distance from you, the elevation, and the size of what may have been a very sophisticated laser beam effect?

Don't put words into my mouth. It was a possibility I explored, which does not explain the metallic look of the craft. I have since discounted that theory.

It strikes me you're just playing your phony lawyer games.

Can I play a real lawyer game, then?

Yep, it's that consistent shifting the burden of proof.

Just like Mormon apologetics.

The diagrams from your blog provide no information from which you could have determined the data you would need to make accurate determinations of speed.

If you really, really insist that I come up with something, then I will venture that a very sophisticated laser-beam effect isn’t out of the question.

Demonstrate it on diagram. Show how this would work, including reproducing a metallic look.

Let me clarify your request:

1. You admittedly do not know what you saw.
2. You insist that I have the burden of proof of explaining why what you saw was not an alien spacecraft.
3. You asked me to provide an explanation that I admit is my ad hoc speculation about something I do not have enough information to explain.
4. You want me to follow up on my ad hoc speculation about something I don't know about with charts and graphs and increasingly sophisticated wild guesses.

So you want me to be a ufologist?

[_Ray A]

The defintion of "agnostic" is that one has not formed a conclusion.

And I have made no conclusion about the whole video. Just the parts I have seen, which is up to the Battle of Los Angeles.

How many minutes of the video have you viewed? I know you're at least up to 15:30. It's 1hour 34 minutes long.

As I said, though, the producers fabricating a recorded voice purporting to be General MacArthur saying something that he never actually said was not helpful for their credibility.

Irrelevant.

I am very aware that it is ufologist dogma that anything the government says is a lie unless the government admits what ufologists believe.

And I'm very aware that Dark J's dogma that anything the government officially says is the truth.

Calls to re-open Congressional hearings have indeed been ongoing. And look how effective those calls have been.

Well what did you expect? They trashed the fake Project Blue Book. They want the secrecy to continue "in the national security interest", and you expect they to say, "YES! Let's get going with that inquiry!"?

By the way, do you happen to know offhand how many people have been prosecuted and/or imprisoned for leaking allegedly "top secret" UFO information? That's what is happening right now with the WikiLeaks founder, because he leaked real classified information.

He did not. He threatened to release classified UFO documents and was arrested. They are still yet to be released. Looks unlikely now considering his arrest.

Get your fact right.