Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

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_Uncle Dale
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Uncle Dale »

glenn wrote:...
according to Dale
...



You appear to have lost interest in the subject of Cowdery
contributions to the Book of Mormon text, so I'll refresh
your memory --- I've been studying Alma 5, which is chock
full of phraseology Cowdery used in his known writings, and
which evidently contains the highest percentage of Cowdery
vocabulary, of all the 239 chapters in the book.

For example -- and just one example out of many:

Here is an indication that Cowdery composed Alma 5 --
So we really should determine the dictation date for
that section of Alma:

1829 Cowdery "revelation" -- March-April 1829???

Behold Jesus Christ IS THE NAME which is given of the Father
and there is none other name given whereby man can be saved
Therefore all men must TAKE UPON THEM THE NAME which IS
given of the Father
for in that NAME SHALL they BE CALLED AT THE LAST DAY
Therefore IF they KNOW NOT THE NAME BY WHICH they ARE CALLED
they cannot have place in the Kingdom of my Father...


Image

compare with:

Alma 5 (attributed to Cowdery) -- dictated May, 1829???

Behold, I say unto you, that the good shepherd doth call you;
yea, and in his own name he doth call you,
which IS THE NAME OF Christ;
and IF ye will NOT hearken unto the voice of the good shepherd,
to THE NAME BY WHICH ye ARE CALLED, behold,
ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd.


Image

and compare with:

Cowdery letter to Hyrum Smith -- June 14, 1829

that then they may be willing to TAKE UPON THEM THE NAME OF Christ
for that IS THE NAME by which they SHALL BE CALLED AT THE LAST DAY
and IF we KNOW NOT THE NAME BY WHICH we ARE CALLED I fear...


If Oliver Cowdery did not compose Alma 5, then to what
phenomenon should we look for an explanation of that
chapter's massive overlap with Oliver's use of language?

UD
Last edited by Bedlamite on Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_Buffalo
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Buffalo »

Uncle Dale wrote:
glenn wrote:...
according to Dale
...



You appear to have lost interest in the subject of Cowdery
contributions to the Book of Mormon text, so I'll refresh
your memory --- I've been studying Alma 5, which is chock
full of phraseology Cowdery used in his known writings, and
which evidently contains the highest percentage of Cowdery
vocabulary, of all the 239 chapters in the book.

For example -- and just one example out of many:

Here is an indication that Cowdery composed Alma 5 --
So we really should determine the dictation date for
that section of Alma:

1829 Cowdery "revelation" -- March-April 1829???

Behold Jesus Christ IS THE NAME which is given of the Father
and there is none other name given whereby man can be saved
Therefore all men must TAKE UPON THEM THE NAME which IS
given of the Father
for in that NAME SHALL they BE CALLED AT THE LAST DAY
Therefore IF they KNOW NOT THE NAME BY WHICH they ARE CALLED
they cannot have place in the Kingdom of my Father...


compare with:

Alma 5 (attributed to Cowdery) -- dictated May, 1829???

Behold, I say unto you, that the good shepherd doth call you;
yea, and in his own name he doth call you,
which IS THE NAME OF Christ;
and IF ye will NOT hearken unto the voice of the good shepherd,
to THE NAME BY WHICH you ARE CALLED, behold,
ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd.


and compare with:

Cowdery letter to Hyrum Smith -- June 14, 1829

that then they may be willing to TAKE UPON THEM THE NAME OF Christ
for that IS THE NAME by which they SHALL BE CALLED AT THE LAST DAY
and IF we KNOW NOT THE NAME BY WHICH we ARE CALLED I fear...


If Oliver Cowdery did not compose Alma 5, then to what
phenomenon should we look for an explanation of that
chapter's massive overlap with Oliver's use of language?

UD


That's pretty darn close.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Uncle Dale »

Buffalo wrote:...
That's pretty darn close.



It's only one example out of many instances where Oliver Cowdery
shares language with Alma 5.

Of course the Mormons can argue that after Cowdery read the
text for Alma 5 (or heard it dictated by Smith) that he was so
greatly influenced by its language, as to make it part of his own
speaking and writing thereafter.

Mormon scholars date the 1829 Cowdery revelation to June, 1829,
AFTER he lost his gift as a seer/translator.

I think it dates to BEFORE April 5, 1829, and thus BEFORE Alma 5
was ever written down. That is to say, Alma 5 echoes Cowdery's
known writings, composed BEFORE he became Smith's scribe.

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_marg
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _marg »

Post reference : link

Okay let me get this out of the way. I had asked Mikwut to give me one study which correlated well with the Conneaut witnesses situation.

Mikwut wrote:But, I will begin with obviously relevant tests and then continue to post as time permits further relevant studies that each apply to certain situations regarding the witnesses.


So he’s starting with the best he’s got. I'll highlight key points I want to address is red.

The first I mentioned in my earlier post and will elaborate on again and further. I think the correspondence to key aspects of the conn. witnesses are beyond obvious and would be silly to state otherwise. It is in regards to adult subjects ability to recall narratives over time, even ones they have repeatedly been subject to. Bartlett originally produced these results over 80 years ago and they have recently been verified. I will quote from the Science of False Memory, I apologize but I only own the Kindle edition and so I can only cite to the Kindle (which is 5% - Locations 381-85 of 9,036 Kindle position):
Quote:
Bergman, E.T., & Roediger, H.L., III (1999) Can Bartlett’s repeated reproduction experiements be replicated? Memory & Cognition, 27, 937-947. They conducted a carefully controlled replication that showed the memory-distortion results that Bartlett reported can indeed be reproduced under comparable conditions. Bergman and Roediger reproduced Bartlett’s original procedures with great fidelity. Thirty subjects read The War of the Ghosts twice and 20 performed written recall 15 minutes later, half under strict instructions and half under lenient instructions. All 30 subjects returned 1 week later and performed written recall, for the first time for 10 subjects. Six months later the subjects were recruited again, and all who were contacted returned for a final recall test. The recall protocols were scored using propositional analysis (Mandler & Johnson, 1977), which represents a narrative as a series of idea units called propositions. Explicitly, protocols were scored for the number of correctly recalled propositions (out of 42 propositions that are present in The War of the Ghosts), for the number of minor distortions, and for the number of major distortions. Both major and minor distortions were common even on the immediate test, just as Bartlett originally reported. Also, responses that we would term false-memory reports were not only common on the immediate test, they increased markedly as a proportion of overall output as one moves from the immediate to the 1-week, and to the 6-month test, a phenomenon that is called the false-memory sleeper effect and that has been the subject of a good deal of recent investigation. By 6 months, propositions that are recalled with major distortions constitute the major form of output. Strictly speaking, then, as Bartlett concluded, after a few months, narrative recall consists mostly of false-memory reports. This remarkable pattern anticipates recent findings on the relative persistence of false versus true memories.


I think it obvious that if after only 6-months the major distortions out-number the minor and the true then the same could easily be said for the nearly 20 years later recall as in the case of the conn. Witnesses. This is the first of many and manifold relevant tests and studies for the conn. witnesses. I will elaborate on others as time permits. And again I stress the combinational nature of the studies I will present composes the overall evidence that conclusively shows that when taken together with more recent eyewitnesses the false-memory is more probable than not
.


Note:

- Subjects read War of the ghosts..twice which would have taken approximately no more than 10 mintues because it consisted of 2 short paragraphs.

-the test was not a test which involved evaluating recall after given retrieval cues. In other words the test did not involve showing subjects various similar short stories at later date to determine if they could correctly identify which one they had read previously.

- the test did not question subjects whether or not they appreciated their memories were likely inaccurate..that is whether their recall was simply "just know" there was something familiar versus whether they "remembered"..

Conclusion: What this test showed is that memory misattribution occurs when subjects have poor source memory, that is brief exposure to information for which they did not have the opportunity to encode elaborately..via various perception encoding such as not only reading but hearing the story read, as well as discussing the story or having someone discuss it with them and relating it to their lives. Consequently over time, subjects unsure of details began substituting details they were familiar with, with details in the story they weren't as familiar with. As an example, a canoe in the story might become a boat later in recall. In addition they were not given any retrieval cues to test later their recall accuracy. That is significant.

The test was not the situation experienced by the Conneaut witnesses...who had the Book of Mormon as a retrieval cue, who discussed and listened to Spalding read, who identified with the story personally as it was of interest at the time due to the mystery of the history of local Indians as well as who built the local mounds.

I’m sure if one were to ask subjects given the tests such as the Bartlett “War of the Ghosts” they would be well aware that their memories were not clear on details and even the general story ..due to not only their brief exposure but their inability to relate the story to themselves personally. The Conneaut witnesses appreciated details had deteriorated with time, but they noted the Book of Mormon was an excellent retrieval cue and the overall storyline they related to their subjective knowledge.
_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »

marg wrote:
GlennThigpen wrote:
marge, even without those passages, not one person in a hundred would read that book as a lost tribes story.


Well they are summarizing what Spalding's book was about not the Book of Mormon.

glenn wrote:You have to approach that story the way the a person who is familiar with the lost tribes fable would. Would those people who spoke about Solomon writing about the lost tribes be speaking about a small group of people of whom five, (Lehi, Nephi, Laman, Lemuel, and Sam) were found to be descendants of Joseph. Or would they be speaking about the lost tribes that were exiled to somewhere in Chaldea around 722-723 B.C. and the story of them being led away found in I believe the second book of Macabees in the apocrypha? You cannot put your own interpretation on this story. You have to understand what the people who were discussing the quaestion would have understood about it.


marge wrote:Right what they were talking about is that spalding wrote an explanation of the history of American Indians and his historical account was that they were descendants of lost tribes, because the family from which they descended were descendents of lost tribes.


That is no where evident in the text of the statements. You are trying to equate ten tribes consisting of maybe four million people to five people of one tribe that are not portrayed as part of a lost tribe. The Book of Mormon explicitly states that it is not about the lost tribes. I will quote Aron Wright once again where he said that Solomon's story was "a history he was writing, of the lost tribes of Israel." There is no way that you can logically equate ten and millions with one and five. I realize that is the very best explanation that you can come up with, but it is bereft of logic and reason. The Book of Mormon starts off about a family, not about lost tribes.



glenn wrote:As I have said, that theory seemed to have been a popular subject of discussion in the early American settlements. There are reports of the idea as early as the 1600's. And the popular idea is that they were led to the America's vis the Bering straits. No one at thetime envisioned a large group of people coming over via a ship, or even ships.

Glenn


marge wrote:My understanding is that there were 2 theories bandied about at the time, one is that a group came from the Middle East across the Atlantic and another that a group came via the Bering Strait..and I suppose in both cases a lost tribe theory may have also been speculated, but not necessarily, it was a version.


In the case of the Bering straits there have been a plethora of discussions on that model. The Bering straits theory is about the only one that you can find discussed during the time period in question, i.e. the early 1800's.

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
_marg
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _marg »

GlennThigpen wrote:
That is no where evident in the text of the statements. You are trying to equate ten tribes consisting of maybe four million people to five people of one tribe that are not portrayed as part of a lost tribe. The Book of Mormon explicitly states that it is not about the lost tribes. I will quote Aron Wright once again where he said that Solomon's story was "a history he was writing, of the lost tribes of Israel." There is no way that you can logically equate ten and millions with one and five. I realize that is the very best explanation that you can come up with, but it is bereft of logic and reason. The Book of Mormon starts off about a family, not about lost tribes.


Glenn we are at an impasse on this issue. Obviously the witnesses appreciated that all 10 tribes with how many millions you said they were estimated to be could not possibly have traveled to America. Obviously what they meant is that the story was about American Indians who descended from a few people who came from the Middle East who were descendants of lost tribes.
_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »

marg wrote:
GlennThigpen wrote:
That is no where evident in the text of the statements. You are trying to equate ten tribes consisting of maybe four million people to five people of one tribe that are not portrayed as part of a lost tribe. The Book of Mormon explicitly states that it is not about the lost tribes. I will quote Aron Wright once again where he said that Solomon's story was "a history he was writing, of the lost tribes of Israel." There is no way that you can logically equate ten and millions with one and five. I realize that is the very best explanation that you can come up with, but it is bereft of logic and reason. The Book of Mormon starts off about a family, not about lost tribes.


Glenn we are at an impasse on this issue. Obviously the witnesses appreciated that all 10 tribes with how many millions you said they were estimated to be could not possibly have traveled to America. Obviously what they meant is that the story was about American Indians who descended from a few people who came from the Middle East who were descendants of lost tribes.


marge, that is not obviously what they meant. You need to do a bit of research about what just about any person living at the time would have understood by the lost tribes, especially those with religious biblical training, such as Ethan Smith and Solomon Spalding. Many people with a religious bent had theorized that the American Indians are descendants of the lost tribes. A passage in the apocryphal book, 2 Esdras relates this tale:

2 Esdras 13:39-45 wrote: And whereas thou sawest that he [the Son of God] gathered another peaceable multitude unto him; Those are the ten tribes, which were carried away prisoners out of their own land in the time of Osea the king, whom Salmanasar the king of Assyria led away captive, and he carried them over the waters, and so came they into another land. But they took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt, That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land. And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river. For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over. For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.


It was a popular idea much discussed from the 1600's on. But at the time, you would find no one theorizing that they had come over by ship, but rather that they had come via the Bering Straits. I doubt that you can find a single author from that period theorizing any other route. And yes, they would have been envisioning the migration of many thousands, maybe millions of people, much like the Bible discusses the Exodus from Egypt. People who fervently believed in that Exodus would no have a problem believing in a sililar migration to the America's.

Whether you or anyone may view it as possible, probable, or ridiculous is not germane. What is pertinent is what they, the Conneaut witnesses, would have understood. Check and see what Ethan Smith's ideas were. That would be a good starting point. You that stated that you have little knowledge of the Bible and that the lost tribes idea is foreign to you. That is one cause for out impasse. You keep attempting to infuse the debate with what you ideas are of a subject that you have admitted little knowledge. I don't know how well you have read the Book of Mormon, or if you have limited your knowledge to searches for pertinent phrases. To be able to understand it, you need to study it. The language is not flowery, not elegant prose, but the book is a complex weaving of many stories and story lines by many different authors. Once you read it with an eye to understanding what the text actually says, you will lose any idea that it can be viewed as a lost tribes story.

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
_marg
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _marg »

GlennThigpen wrote:
Whether you or anyone may view it as possible, probable, or ridiculous is not germane. What is pertinent is what they, the Conneaut witnesses, would have understood. Check and see what Ethan Smith's ideas were. That would be a good starting point.


Okay so what I'm understanding you saying is that Ethan Smith's theory is that the Lost tribes...were American indians..that according to Ethan Smith's theory Am. Indians represented all 10 lost tribes who had migrated at one time en masse in the millions after 720 from Northern Israel.

Consequently you think the witnesses are confusing that theory which makes sense to you and you think would have made sense to them..with the Manuscript Story -Conneaut Creek.

You don't think it's possible that Spalding's story could have been about Lehi & family being a representative of one of the lost tribes and being the ultimate ancestor of all Am. Indian...because you think that the Book of Mormon from which the witnesses say they recognize Spalding's manuscript within...has 3 lines mentioning lost tribes lived elsewhere than the America's.

Have I got it right?

And I say we are at an impasse. I don't think the conneaut witnesses necessarily believed the lost tribes idea was true even if they were aware of Ethan Smith's en masse theory (assuming that was his theory). I think that Spalding represented Lehi as a descendant of a lost tribe and consequently he had the storyline that Am. Indians descend from Lost tribes through ancestry of Lehi also a descendant of a lost tribe.

When I looked at nova on the lost tribes..it appears there were many in the past who believed in the lost tribes myth...who thought the lost tribes dispersed around the world.
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Uncle Dale »

Uncle Dale wrote:...
You appear to have lost interest in the subject of Cowdery
contributions to the Book of Mormon text
...



Still more evidence that the 1829 Oliver Cowdery "revelation"
prefigured the Book of Mormon text, and was not likely
copied from that same text:


March(?) 1829 Oliver Cowdery revelation:

Now may the grace of God the Father and
our Lord Jesus Christ be and abide with you all
...Amen



June 1829 Oliver Cowdery letter:

Now may the grace of God the Father and of
our Lord Jesus Christ be and abide with you all
Amen



June(?) 1829 dictation -- Ether 12:41:

And now... the Grace of God the Father, and also
the Lord Jesus Christ... be, and abide in you
forever. Amen.



June(?) 1829 dictation -- Moroni 7:2:

And now... by the grace of God, the Father, and
our Lord Jesus Christ...



June(?) 1829 dictation -- Moroni 9:26:

And may the grace of God the Father...and
our Lord Jesus Christ... be, and abide with you
forever. Amen.


Or, did Oliver just emulate those long-dead Nephite prophets?

Dale
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »

marg wrote:
GlennThigpen wrote:
Whether you or anyone may view it as possible, probable, or ridiculous is not germane. What is pertinent is what they, the Conneaut witnesses, would have understood. Check and see what Ethan Smith's ideas were. That would be a good starting point.


Okay so what I'm understanding you saying is that Ethan Smith's theory is that the Lost tribes...were American indians..that according to Ethan Smith's theory Am. Indians represented all 10 lost tribes who had migrated at one time en masse in the millions after 720 from Northern Israel.

Consequently you think the witnesses are confusing that theory which makes sense to you and you think would have made sense to them..with the Manuscript Story -Conneaut Creek.

You don't think it's possible that Spalding's story could have been about Lehi & family being a representative of one of the lost tribes and being the ultimate ancestor of all Am. Indian...because you think that the Book of Mormon from which the witnesses say they recognize Spalding's manuscript within...has 3 lines mentioning lost tribes lived elsewhere than the America's.

Have I got it right?

And I say we are at an impasse. I don't think the conneaut witnesses necessarily believed the lost tribes idea was true even if they were aware of Ethan Smith's en masse theory (assuming that was his theory). I think that Spalding represented Lehi as a descendant of a lost tribe and consequently he had the storyline that Am. Indians descend from Lost tribes through ancestry of Lehi also a descendant of a lost tribe.

When I looked at nova on the lost tribes..it appears there were many in the past who believed in the lost tribes myth...who thought the lost tribes dispersed around the world.



marge, I agree that we are at an impasse. You assertions though, seem to be made without any evidence backing you up. Of course there have been people with different opinions during the ages that had differing opinions as to the whereabouts of the lost tribes. But we are talking about the idea of the lost tribes being ancestors of the American Indians. That is what the witnesses explicitly said that they were talking about. I have hinted that a look at the View of the Hebrews by Ethan Smith might enlighten you on the subject a bit. It is online at http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/voh/voh_main.shtml.

Here is the introduction to the VOTH from that site:
2Think.org on the View of the Hebrews wrote:First published in 1823, with a second edition in 1825, Ethan Smith's hugely popular book View of the Hebrews reflects the prevailing notions of the origin of the American Indians of the time. Ethan Smith, a pastor of a church in Poultney, Vermont, was by no means the first to advance the idea that the Indigenous Americans were descended from the Hebrews; such an idea was first advanced as early as 1815 and before, and had been the subject of much speculation in the intervening years. Ethan Smith's work intended to bring together the latest research on the subject, consisting largely of apocryphal stories gleaned from frontier missionaries.


Also a free pdf download is available at:
http://byustudies.BYU.edu/showTitle.aspx?title=6511

You will not be able to understand the subject unless you learn what those people understood about the lost tribes. Smith mentions the Bering (Beering in VOTH) straits repeatedly as the likely migration path, and notes that others held the same view. He also notes many others of the era who held the views that the American Indians descended from the lost tribes after they had made their way to America. I have provided you with some evidence to support my viewpoint. I really have gotten nothing from you in the way of evidence to support you theory.

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
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