Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

[_Dan Vogel]

Same as above. But if they contradict the clear meaning of Hurlbut’s note, I would be skeptical.

If Hurlbut was under longstanding threat from Mormons, I would suspect what Hurlbut said and wrote. The couple's mere anxiety at the interview with Dickinson and her lawyer indicates SOMETHING.

The preponderance of the statements of others outweighs what they had to say.

I don’t see how threats relate to the offhanded note he wrote on the MS. Obviously he wasn’t afraid to talk about the MS in public. Moreover, it was Hurlbut, not Joseph Smith, who was ordered by a court to keep the peace.

[_Jersey Girl]

Are you saying that you think there could have been two manuscripts?

No, I think that he only wrote the one. After reading what his wife said about the time that he started the manuscript, which coincides very well with Josiah Spalding's memories, I do not believe that he ever wrote but one "major" manuscript, and that is the one now in residence at Oberlin college.

Glenn

In the above you say that after reading what his wife said about the time that he started the manuscript, which coincides with Josiah Spalding's memories, that you don't believe that he (Solomon Spalding) ever wrote but one major manuscript and that that manuscript is the one at Oberlin college.

Here is what you previously stated regarding Josiah Spalding's memories, when I asked you:

Why would Matilda hand over an unfinished manuscript to be published?

And you replied:

I am not sure that she ever read the manuscript. I am not sure that the manuscript was never finished. Josiah Spalding thinks that Matilda communicated to him later that Solomon had finished the story with the savage tribe overcoming the cultured tribe.
One the reverse of page 131 is an unfinished letter with the date of January 1813. This indicates that Solomon was still working on the document after he left the Conneaut area. Redick McKee note that he was working on the manuscript still in 1814 and maybe 1815.

Please follow what you have stated. You have stated that Josiah thinks that Matilda told him that Solomon had finished the story.

You added that:

There are only 172 pages in the manuscript at Oberlin, and it is very possible that Solomon did finish the manuscript. His widow said that she carefully preserved it, but we do not know how careful Hurlbut and Howe were with it once it was discovered not to be of any anti-Mormon propaganda value.
Am I waffling? No, just thinking about it a bit more.

Summarizing your comments now:

When I asked if you thought that there were 2 manuscripts, you said no, that he only wrote one.

In the above, you clearly state that you think Josiah's memories coincide with Matilda's account.

You state that Josiah thinks that Matilda told him that the manuscript was finished.

You state that the Oberlin Manuscript contains a total of 172 pages. We know, by our ability to examine it, that it is unfinished.

How could one manuscript be both finished and unfinished, Glenn?

Please clarify.

[_Jersey Girl]

Roger,

Agreed. But he allegedly was showing it to the public during his very limited engagements prior to his trial while boasting that this was going to destroy Smith and Mormonism. Hardly the actions we would expect from a guy who thinks the ms he obtained "was of no account."

The statement he wrote on the Oberlin MS indicates that he for a time thought it was the MS described by his witnesses. At some point after that, he evidently changed his mind.

Two questions.

1. What statement did Hurlbut write on the Oberlin Manuscript?
2. What is your evidence for Hurlbut writing on the Oberlin Manuscript?

[_GlennThigpen]

Summarizing your comments now:

When I asked if you thought that there were 2 manuscripts, you said no, that he only wrote one.

In the above, you clearly state that you think Josiah's memories coincide with Matilda's account.

You state that Josiah thinks that Matilda told him that the manuscript was finished.

You state that the Oberlin Manuscript contains a total of 172 pages. We know, by our ability to examine it, that it is unfinished.

How could one manuscript be both finished and unfinished, Glenn?

Please clarify.

Here I am repeating a quote from my earlier post:

There are only 172 pages in the manuscript at Oberlin, and it is very possible that Solomon did finish the manuscript. His widow said that she carefully preserved it, but we do not know how careful Hurlbut and Howe were with it once it was discovered not to be of any anti-Mormon propaganda value.
Am I waffling? No, just thinking about it a bit more.

To clarify, it is possible that Solomon did finish the manuscript, but a portion of it became lost through careless handling by either Hurlbut or Howe. It was deemed useless in their eyes and they cared not for it. I am not saying that was the case. Just a possibility.
There is much uncertainty about any of this. Josiah is not certain that he actually received that communication from Matilda. He couched it in the terms of "if I remember correctly", or the like.
Matilda is not on record as saying that she ever took the manuscript to Patterson.
Patterson in some interviews seems to contradict himself in regards to other interviews.

There can be no real consensus reached upon that subject based upon the available evidence.

Glenn

[_Jersey Girl]

Reposting this.

The manuscript which we have was apparently obtained from Spaulding's effects at West Amity, Pennsylvania, at some time after the publication of the Book of Mormon, and seems to have been found as a result of a search to find whatever remained of Spaulding's writings in order to throw light on the question of whether he was the author of the Book of Mormon, or not. The manuscript which we have was copied under our supervision and a typewritten copy furnished to the Shepherd Book Company, Salt Lake City, Utah, and also to the Reorganized Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints, then located at Lamoni, Iowa. It was printed and sold by both branches of the Mormon Church, who gave it the title "The Manuscript Found"—a title which does not appear in any way on the manuscript, which simply had pencilled upon the papers in which it was wrapped, "Manuscript story, Conneaut Creek."

http://www.oberlin.edu/archive/faq/spaulding_origins.html


Discuss.

[_Jersey Girl]

Reposting this.

The manuscript which we have was apparently obtained from Spaulding's effects at West Amity, Pennsylvania, at some time after the publication of the Book of Mormon, and seems to have been found as a result of a search to find whatever remained of Spaulding's writings in order to throw light on the question of whether he was the author of the Book of Mormon, or not. The manuscript which we have was copied under our supervision and a typewritten copy furnished to the Shepherd Book Company, Salt Lake City, Utah, and also to the Reorganized Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints, then located at Lamoni, Iowa. It was printed and sold by both branches of the Mormon Church, who gave it the title "The Manuscript Found"—a title which does not appear in any way on the manuscript, which simply had pencilled upon the papers in which it was wrapped, "Manuscript story, Conneaut Creek."

http://www.oberlin.edu/archive/faq/spaulding_origins.html


Why was the Oberlin manuscript re-titled prior to publishing? Discuss.

[Guest]

Reposting this.

The manuscript which we have was apparently obtained from Spalding's effects at West Amity, Pennsylvania, at some time after the publication of the Book of Mormon, and seems to have been found as a result of a search to find whatever remained of Spalding's writings in order to throw light on the question of whether he was the author of the Book of Mormon, or not. The manuscript which we have was copied under our supervision and a typewritten copy furnished to the Shepherd Book Company, Salt Lake City, Utah, and also to the Reorganized Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints, then located at Lamoni, Iowa. It was printed and sold by both branches of the Mormon Church, who gave it the title "The Manuscript Found"—a title which does not appear in any way on the manuscript, which simply had penciled upon the papers in which it was wrapped, "Manuscript story, Conneaut Creek."

http://www.oberlin.edu/archive/faq/spaulding_origins.html


Why was the Oberlin manuscript re-titled prior to publishing? Discuss.

Here I noticed a big, flat stone fixed in the form of a door. I immediately tore it down and lo, a cavity within the wall presented itself; it being about three feet in diameter from side to side and about two feet high. Within this cavity I found an earthen box with a cover which shut it perfectly tight. The box was two feet in length one and half in breadth and one and three inches in diameter. My mind filled with awful sensations which crowded fast upon me (( and )) would hardly permit my hands to remove this venerable deposit, but curiosity soon gained the ascendancy (( and )) the box was taken and raised to open (( its cover. )) When I had removed the cover I found that it contained twenty-eight (( rolls )) of parchment; and that when (( examined )) appeared to be manuscripts written in elegant hand with ROMAN letters and in the Latin Language.

Here the author is talking about finding a manuscipt.

And what so many of the witnesses claim that Spalding says that he called his story, Mauscript Found (John Spalding, Henry Lake, John Miller, Josiah Spalding, Joseph Miller, etc.)

But what is written on the wrapper that came came with the manuscript was "Manuscript Story - Conneaut Creek". It has not been determined who actually penciled in that title, but it is seen by some as an attempt by someone to facilitate the myth that Solomon wrote two different stories. The RLDS and LDS maintain that the "Manuscript Story - Conneaut Creek" is the "Manuscript Found" and published it as such.

I am editing this post to add this little item:
Talking about phrases from different nineteenth century documents, here are two that seem to be so similar as to preclude coincidence.


From the Oberlin manuscript:
"They were written on a variety of Subjects. But the Roll which principally attracted my attention"

And this from John Miller's statement"
"He had written two or three books or pamphlets on different subjects; but that which more particularly drew my attention,"

As Uncle Dale says in his signature, the discovery never seems to stop.

Glenn

Glenn

[_Jersey Girl]

The RLDS and LDS maintain that the "Manuscript Story - Conneaut Creek" is the "Manuscript Found" and published it as such.

Why?

[_GlennThigpen]

The RLDS and LDS maintain that the "Manuscript Story - Conneaut Creek" is the "Manuscript Found" and published it as such.

Why?

Because there is so very little evidence that Solomon ever wrote another story similar to the Book of Mormon.

Glenn

[_marg]

That doesn't answer J.G's question Glenn. Why would the church choose to name the manuscript by what the witnesses claim it was called when the witnesses are accused of faulty memory?