The Future UO: A Few Observations on its Characteristics

[_Nightlion]

Look guys, I mean look, what does it say on top of my avatar.
Worlds Top Zion Scientist
I am not wrong about anything concerning Zion. Period.

You want to wallow in money and politics BEFORE you even come unto Christ and partake of the spirit and power of Zion. DUMB.

You see, fellas, the subjection of one's heart to the kingdom of God which is requisite to the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, plus the virtue of being endowed with charity by way of having come to know the Lord, (God is love ) makes all these matters that you tussle over moot and seamlessly easy for the sanctified.

That you ONLY want to spend time on these frivolities proves of what sort you are of. You only want to be about YOUR business and not seek the Lord to establish HIS righteousness. Of course. Because you have no faith only some knowledge that sparks useless and endless pretenses.

[_bcspace]

Look guys, I mean look, what does it say on top of my avatar.
Worlds Top Zion Scientist
I am not wrong about anything concerning Zion. Period.

Do you see my self-proclaimed title? It Trump's your self-proclaimed title. It is "Right Divider of LDS Systematic Theology".

You see, fellas, the subjection of one's heart to the kingdom of God which is requisite to the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, plus the virtue of being endowed with charity by way of having come to know the Lord, (God is love ) makes all these matters that you tussle over moot and seamlessly easy for the sanctified.

No LDS person would disagree with this either. Such doesn't change the fact that God's economy, both temporal and spiritual, is free market capitalism. God plants, sows, and invests. He harvests, grafts, and rewards based on productivity. He expects his servants to do the same in all matters.

[_Markk]

BC,

No LDS person would disagree with this either. Such doesn't change the fact that God's economy, both temporal and spiritual, is free market capitalism. God plants, sows, and invests. He harvests, grafts, and rewards based on productivity. He expects his servants to do the same in all matters.

Where does it say that?

Matt 20:1-16 "For the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who was the master of a household, who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. He went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace. To them he said, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went their way. Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise. About the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle. He said to them, ‘Why do you stand here all day idle?’ "They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ "He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and you will receive whatever is right.’ When evening had come, the lord of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning from the last to the first.’ "When those who were hired at about the eleventh hour came, they each received a denarius. When the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise each received a denarius. When they received it, they murmured against the master of the household, saying, ‘These last have spent one hour, and you have made them equal to us, who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat!’ "But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Didn’t you agree with me for a denarius? Take that which is yours, and go your way. It is my desire to give to this last just as much as to you. Isn’t it lawful for me to do what I want to with what I own? Or is your eye evil, because I am good?’ So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few are chosen."

[_The Nehor]

Okay then. But the only alternative is the free market capitalist approach which is God's way.

No. I completely disagree.

The UO can't work with out it and that is why the LoC is not an economic system and no economic constraints have been placed on production etc.

So because socialism isn't it it must be capitalism? There's a fallacy there somewhere.

Yet the indiviudal retains the deeded assets and any surplus not already consecrated. People who enter into this covenant (many of us already have when you think about it) are generally not going to have much of a problem. But they will still be accumulating wealth, making profits, investing capital, and saving for a nicer future etc. They will also be hiring and firing, setting prices and productions quotas, and choosing a college and profession without government or Church control.

So it's exactly the same as now? Your Zion sucks.

[_moksha]

When I say "the socialist interpretation is wrong" and you say "No", you bet I'm going to think you are a socialist.

Senator Joseph McCarthy knew communists. After all, everything that he did not like was either communist or communist inspired. If Nehor disagrees with you then of course he is a socialist.

Good thing Nehor did not have an opinion regarding witchcraft.

[_Nightlion]

No LDS person would disagree with this either. Such doesn't change the fact that God's economy, both temporal and spiritual, is free market capitalism. God plants, sows, and invests. He harvests, grafts, and rewards based on productivity. He expects his servants to do the same in all matters.

Well, well, BC you made me laugh out loud. Cool. Anyways it remains extremely offensive to the sensibilities of Zion that you guys think ZION will be either THIS way or THAT way OF THE WAYS OF THE WORLD. Have none of you considered that you must forsake the world to approach Zion?

What then would you classify an economy where everyone seeks the interests of his neighbor with an eye single to the glory of God? Hmm?

D&C 82: 19
19 Every man seeking the interest of his neighbor, and doing all things with an eye single to the glory of God.

[_Droopy]

Will the poor and those with capital interact with each other in this united order, or will interaction occur through intermediate overseers?

They interact now, on many levels, so why wouldn't they interact in a Zion society?

[_Droopy]

Thinking of the UO as primarily an economic system who's primary justification is the eradication of poverty, or the equalization of socioeconomic class, will lead to a number of mistaken assumptions and ideas about the nature and structure of "Zion"

Parable teaching otherwise:

For what man among you having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou clothed in rags and sit thou there—and looketh upon his sons and saith I am just?

Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine.

There are two fundamental problems with this position.

1. In a democratic, rule of law grounded free market"capitalist" economic order, no one decides for anybody else who has what, or how much of it, and this core fact renders the relevance of this verse moot.

2. Your analysis in in contradiction to virtually every modern General Authority who has ever discoursed on the matter at any detail. As Ezra Taft Benson said, "The law of consecration "is a celestial law, not an economic experiment.

Scripture saying otherwise:

For verily I say unto you, the time has come, and is now at hand; and behold, and lo, it must needs be that there be an organization of my people, in regulating and establishing the affairs of the storehouse for the poor of my people, both in this place and in the land of Zion—

For a permanent and everlasting establishment and order unto my church, to advance the cause, which ye have espoused, to the salvation of man, and to the glory of your Father who is in heaven;

That you may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea, and earthly things also, for the obtaining of heavenly things.

For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things;

These are the same old tired, threadbare, isolated and incontextual proof texts used in precisely the same manner that EVs use Paul to prove salvation by grace alone. As has been pointed out again and again here, and by GAs elsewhere over much of the 20th century, the "equality" spoken of here is equality of claim or access to the economic blessings of a Zion community. It has no relation to economic egalitarianism in any literal sense.

But it must needs be done in mine own way; and behold this is the way that I, the Lord, have decreed to provide for my saints, that the poor shall be exalted, in that the rich are made low.

Yes they will, but you're still a long, long way, given what we know about the proper interpretation of such verses from our modern prophets, seers, and revelators, from demonstrating any equality of condition or economic results.

Sorry, you're wrong.

Wresting the scriptures can become a full time occupation as the fever spreads and one's temperature rises. We've seen this all before, and I dare say we shall be seeing it in the future.

[_Droopy]

"Equality of opportunity" is a phrase you added without any support. I stand by equal in earthly things according to circumstances, wants, and needs. There is nothing about opportunity in there.

All the things you mentioned that you will have in your closet are things that have already been produced and accumulated. If there is to be no equality of opportunity in economic or temporal matters in Zion, this would seem to imply that one major purpose of Zion, as a concept and actual social order, is to crush, or at least highly circumscribe individual economic activity and creativity (starting, running, and doing business, in other words).

If, in Zion, I have little or no opportunity to use the skills and talents I have in the economic realm, how then, will wealth be created, beyond the stuff you've already crammed into your closet? How are others to come by the same things and amenities?

[_Droopy]

It's too bad that the Skousen/John Birch wing of the church has to reinterpret all of Joseph's scripture to make them fit your right wing political views. But politics is more important than theology, right BC?[/quote]

This is the Celestial room, so perhaps you could take theses kinds of needlessly provocative and intellectually odd animadversions somewhere else.