Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

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_MCB
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _MCB »

Uncle Dale wrote:The name of William B. Backenstos, mid-1840s Sheriff of Hancock Co.,
Illinois comes to mind...Can anybody believe that Daniel H. Wells (of MMM fame) was truly
a non-Mormon at Nauvoo?

UD

That is the difference between Jack-Mormons and ExMormons. Jacks keep their Mormon culture and some of their Mormon beliefs, and continue serving the LDS from a comfortable distance.

I need to go searching for some appropriate unpleasant smilies.
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm
_Dan Vogel
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Dan Vogel »

Marg,

You should never accuse people of dishonesty, when the only evidence you have is in your own mind.


There is a pattern I'm noting of you Dan. I present reasons why Occam's Razor is not an applicable tool, to use in choosing between competing theories with different conclusion..such as the Smith alone theory with Smith as sole author as the conclusion and the Spalding/Rigdon theory with Smith and multiple contributors. You ignore my reasoning, don't continue to discuss or counter why Occam's Razor is valid between competing theories with different conclusion ..but instead shift focus essentially to an attack me and my comprehension of the words phenomonem, conclusion and theory. You continue to insist I'm misusing the words when I am not..so I suppose I'll have to spend time and continue to address this. But the real focus you are attempting to do, is shift away from providing reasoning which counters my point that Occam's Razor is inappropriate in circumstances involving historical accounts. (Please see the wiki quote which also explains this)


Your problem is that you assume you are right. You have latched on to a quibble about a strict definition of a term, when the term has a wider meaning as well. Scientists and historians favor theories/interpretations of the same data that make the fewest ad hocs. In principle, that’s an appeal to simplicity and a preference for the fewest assumptions and least elaboration. That’s the spirit of Occam’s Razer, and that’s how it is used in the literature. It’s not a matter of simple vs. complex, which is not what I have been talking about. Still, Occam’s Razor in the narrow sense can be used to evaluate S/R theory, without reference to any competing theory. But I will explain more on this later. Your posts are long and will take time to deal with them (perhaps tomorrow).

Right now, I’m concerned with you increasing ad hominal attacks. Disagreeing with your use of terms is not an attack on you. Get real! An attack is accusing me of dishonesty. If anyone has displayed a pattern here—it’s you! Despite long and frustrating arguments with you about the 20-year old memories, “lost tribes”, and your hat-trick-joke of a theory, which were vigorously defended by you in the face of clear evidence to the contrary, I never accused you of dishonesty. Now, give me the same respect.

Then I find you misrepresent the reasoning I've given why the Book of Mormon witnesses are not reliable witnesses.


I don’t believe I did. I don’t think you had a clear position in the first place. I did my best to respond to the vague and simultaneous accusations of dishonesty and gullible.

Then I also find out you have misrepresented and it looks like a blatant misquoting of the book How to think about weird things.


I haven’t read what you wrote on this, but I don’t believe I misrepresented the book. But how do you know that it is intentional? Besides, I think you misrepresent sources all the time. I simply correct you without accusing you of anything intentional.

So what am I to make of this Dan. These are not minor mistakes in this discussion and the mistakes are self serving for you.

How should I interpret these misrepresentations and misquoting as well as avoidance of the real issue in the discussion which is whether or not you have been using Occam's Razor and ad hoc fallacy correctly in your dismissal of the S/R theory?


You are to make nothing of this, but someone who believes there’s something in the Spalding theory can see anything they want. Again, you are assuming you are right, and that you have successfully read my mind. I’m not saying I don’t make mistakes, but I’m sincere in everything I write. In fact, if you read back through this thread you should find I think two instances where I made mistakes and acknowledged them—once to Dale, and another to Roger. I can’t recall anytime you admitted you could be wrong, and now you are turning more ad hominal in your posts and trying to capitalize on what you think is a correct definition of a word—what am I to make of that, Marg?

Then, to cap it all, you tell Dale:

It's been frustrating for you..you've been up against a well orchestrated machine. I wouldn't be surprised if Dan is a part of that machine. If somehow it was discovered that the church has been paying Dan to work as an apologist for them, and he's actually a true believer in Mormonism, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised.


Wow! Astounding! As I have been saying, you have no boundaries to your imagination. Apparently, imaginative and convoluted responses to counterevidence are also used in your approach to real life. Why do you give yourself permission to attack me in such a silly way?
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_marg
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _marg »

Dan,

You are focusing on irrelevant tangents. Whether you call me illogical or I say that it appears you might be dishonest, is irrelevant to the issues.

The issue is whether or not you have been using logical concepts of Occam's Razor and ad hoc fallacy..incorrectly as a means to argue against the S/R theory and influence others to dismiss it.

From wiki:

Occam’s razor cannot help toward a rational decision between competing explanations of the same empirical facts.

Occam’s razor itself does not support an objective epistemology.


There is absolutely no way that Occam's Razor should ever be used in any sense as a discriminating means against the S/R theory.

You were wrong to bring up that concept as if it has some logical basis to apply against S/R theory. You are acting as an agent to confuse individuals who have a poor understanding of Occam's Razor.

As well ad hoc fallacy is not applicable to historical claims which can not be objectively verified.

Think about it Dan..with regards to ad hoc fallacy. Since simplicity is not a means to determine truth..a complex event will require more explanations than a simple one. If all mysteries could be solve by simply choose the account with the least bits of data and explanations...we could simply dismiss all and every complex explanation without any investigation necessary. Why bother with trials, and juries and investigations...it would just be a matter of ...what seems to be the simplest easiest explanation. And heck let's just take at face value, what every criminal says, because that would makes things the easiest.

Do you have any idea how utterly absurd and ridiculous your reasoning sounds? Yes, yes I know you get support from the Mormon community ...and they treat you with respect.
_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »

marg wrote:in my opinion Dan's view is more along the lines of Smith was a creative genius (as opposed to a "cunning conman"), who was a true God believer in an interfering in mankind sort of God and had religiously motivated good intentions. That perspective sits well with a believer and the church. Come on Glenn admit it, you have no problems with that perspective. Sure there are differences between the perspective of 'Smith with divine' help versus 'Smith as a creative genius, religiously sincere and well intended and perhaps inspired'..the latter perspective leaves open the possibility of inspiration from the divine...so the theories do not conflict in a significant way.


Well, Dan has proffered the opinion that Joseph was making the story up as he went along and was duping Oliver and all of the other scribes and witnesses to the translation process. And I do have problems, as a "TBM" with that perspective.

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
_marg
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _marg »

What problems do you have with that perspective Glenn?
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Uncle Dale »

GlennThigpen wrote:...the opinion that Joseph was making the story up as he went along and was duping Oliver
...


I agree with you -- that such a reading of history is unbelievable.

Either Oliver truly encountered angels; John the Baptist; Peter,
James and John; and, ultimately, Jesus Christ himself -- or else
Oliver was a knowing liar.

I can almost picture him believing in the golden plates, the magical
spectacles, and the sword of Laban. I can at least imagine him
believing in historical Nephites who were Christians and who left
behind Christian writings.

It is harder for me to think of Oliver believing that Joe Smith was
performing an exact and true translation of ancient records ---

But at least I can try and have a particle of belief on all that.

But either Oliver truly met those wonderful biblical holy men,
or he did not. Joe Smith could not have exercised such great
power over Oliver, as to delude him so many times over.

Either Oliver was a liar, or Mormonism is true.

Uncle Dale
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »

marg wrote:What problems do you have with that perspective Glenn?



Dan's idea of a creative genius and the idea of divine inspiration are nowhere near the same. Else he and I would not have such divergent opinions on the matter. Dan's theory rejects the idea of divine intervention and he disavows the idea of a divine being entirely.
Dan and I can agree on some points because we seem to approach many ideas using pretty much the same logic. However there is a wide divide on the basic perspectives from which we view the world. For him, and seemingly you also, any phenomenon must have a naturalistic explanation. I am comfortable with explanations that include a higher intelligence having a hand in things.

I can look at things such as the Pearl Curran/Patience Worth phenomenon and acknowledge that science has not provided the answers for that yet. It may do so at some time, and I expect that would be Dan's viewpoint, i.e. that whatever strange events happen in this world for which there is presently no logical explanation, science will eventually ante up and the naturalistic explanation will be forthcoming.
I can look at things like the expanding universe and note that it seems to be defying some natural laws, such as the law of gravity. The universe is expanding, and its rate of expansion, instead of slowing down due to the effects of gravity, is actually expanding at an ever increasing rate.
Scientists have proposed an ad hoc theory for this pheomenon. Dark energy. There must be dark energy in the universe between the galaxies causing the acceleration.

Maybe there is such a thing as dark energy that can't be detected by scientific instruments available right now. However, this dark matter theory is on the order of the supernatural because it is something that we do not understand and have no scientific explanation for. Maybe there are laws that we have not discovered yet that will account for those types of phenomena. And maybe not.

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »

Uncle Dale wrote:
GlennThigpen wrote:...the opinion that Joseph was making the story up as he went along and was duping Oliver
...


I agree with you -- that such a reading of history is unbelievable.

Either Oliver truly encountered angels; John the Baptist; Peter,
James and John; and, ultimately, Jesus Christ himself -- or else
Oliver was a knowing liar.

I can almost picture him believing in the golden plates, the magical
spectacles, and the sword of Laban. I can at least imagine him
believing in historical Nephites who were Christians and who left
behind Christian writings.

It is harder for me to think of Oliver believing that Joe Smith was
performing an exact and true translation of ancient records ---

But at least I can try and have a particle of belief on all that.

But either Oliver truly met those wonderful biblical holy men,
or he did not. Joe Smith could not have exercised such great
power over Oliver, as to delude him so many times over.

Either Oliver was a liar, or Mormonism is true.

Uncle Dale


And Joseph Smith, and David Whitmer, and Martin Harris, et al.

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Uncle Dale »

GlennThigpen wrote:...
And Joseph Smith, and David Whitmer, and Martin Harris, et al.
...


I do not know that David Whitmer ever claimed to have encountered
Jesus Christ, John the Baptist, etc. He did testify of encountering
an angel, but in a very visionary situation. I have no problem with
David having witnessed an angel -- or what he thought was an angel.

Martin Harris is a somewhat different case. Although he reportedly
met with both Lucifer and Christ, we only have hearsay accounts
of that sort of thing. Without hearing directly from Martin himself,
I cannot assess his claims in that regard.

As for Joe Smith, he proved himself a liar at Nauvoo, in ostensibly
opposing polygamy. His wife carried on that lie -- as did her
infamous brother-in-law, "Patriarch" William Smith. I consider
the whole lot of them a pack of deceivers.

A Palmyra resident once reported:

As far as Mormonism was connected with its reputed founder, Joseph, always called Joe Smith, it had its origin in the brain and heart of an ignorant, deceitful mother. Joe Smith's mother moved in the lowest walks of life, but she had a kind of mental power, which her son shared. With them both the imagination was the commanding faculty. That was vain but vivid. To it was subsidized reason, conscience, truth. Both mother and son were noted for a habit of extravagant assertion. They would look a listener full in the eye, and, without confusion or blanching, would fluently improvise startling statements and exciting stories, the warp and woof of which were alike sheer falsehood. Was an inconsistency alluded to, nothing daunted, a subterfuge was always at hand. As one old man, who knew them well, said to me, "You couldn't face them down. They'd lie and stick to it."
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/NY ... htm#052881


I have no reason to doubt that this was indeed the viewpoint
expressed by numerous people in the Palmyra-Manchester area.

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_Dan Vogel
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Dan Vogel »

Uncle Dale wrote:
GlennThigpen wrote:...the opinion that Joseph was making the story up as he went along and was duping Oliver
...


I agree with you -- that such a reading of history is unbelievable.

Either Oliver truly encountered angels; John the Baptist; Peter,
James and John; and, ultimately, Jesus Christ himself -- or else
Oliver was a knowing liar.

I can almost picture him believing in the golden plates, the magical
spectacles, and the sword of Laban. I can at least imagine him
believing in historical Nephites who were Christians and who left
behind Christian writings.

It is harder for me to think of Oliver believing that Joe Smith was
performing an exact and true translation of ancient records ---

But at least I can try and have a particle of belief on all that.

But either Oliver truly met those wonderful biblical holy men,
or he did not. Joe Smith could not have exercised such great
power over Oliver, as to delude him so many times over.

Either Oliver was a liar, or Mormonism is true.

Uncle Dale


I think the situation is more complex than either/or. Cowdery the scribe in 1829, who claimed a vision of an angel and plates, and Cowdery, who claimed in 1834-35 to have received angelic priesthood ordinations five years earlier and suddenly appointed co-president of the church with Joseph Smith in Dec. 1835, are different things.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
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