Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

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_Uncle Dale
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Uncle Dale »

Roger wrote:...there is no logical reason to conclude no one other than Joseph could have contributed to the text and no outside source other than the Bible could have been used.
...


If I am understanding the Brodieites' arguments here correctly, then
the logical/scientific application of Occam's razor excludes those
non-Joseph contributions as a needless complexity.

I have mentioned in these postings several times that Joseph Smith
might have secreted pages from a pocket Bible, either in his lap or
in his hat. Thus the KJV text (with theological corrections) could have
been inserted into the Book of Mormon without any witness notice.
But, If I am understanding the Brodieites' arguments here correctly,
that possibility is an ad hoc addition to their pure and elegant compositional
theory -- and is therefore disallowed.

I have also mentioned here, that Oliver Cowdery made grandiose
claims of encountering biblical personages which no non-Mormon
accepts as true -- thus showing him to have been a knowing liar.
However, when this knowledge of Cowdery's bad character is
applied to his pre-1830 activities, the Brodieites say that the claim
is an ad hominem attack upon Cowdery himself.

The Smith handwriting occurs in a late chapter of Alma -- I don't
have my reference handy. It is not a strong argument for Cowdery
authorship -- but it is likely only one of several instances of Smith
having intruded his handwriting into a manuscript which is today
mostly missing.

It seems that the Brodieites have won another round here. I do not
know what logic to present to them, in order to stimulate them to
conduct additional textual research.

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_marg
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _marg »

Roger wrote: Dan makes a very weak case when he suggests there was no reason for them to mention that a Bible was used. On the contrary, there was every reason to avoid mentioning it because the text itself implies the copying was done by ancient Nephite authors! The evidence shows otherwise.


This is a good point.
Their lack of mentioning a Bible indicates he either concealed a Bible, if not then it is a good indication some acted as accomplices keeping silent on information they appreciated was detrimental to reveal. They made it known that Smith used nothing to copy from, so if they were all honest, one or more of them should have mentioned the use of a Bible. But of course, they couldn't because to do so would expose the con of existence of Nephites..so the likelihood, contrary to Dan's position that they were all duped, is that some at the very least were accomplices..willing to lie by omission of obvious important information.
_mikwut
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _mikwut »

Roger and marg,

I will not be led down your silly trails and red herrings. There is too much substance you both ignore and I believe it is intentional. The S/R theory has no historical warrant. It is mess, nothing has changed in two years I have discussed this except it has gotten weaker with the Jocker's evidence which was and is no longer the only reason to even gaze its way. The discussion is simply repeating both of your just so stories over and over and then getting twisted over the plain meaning of words and logic for page after page. Is very unsatisfying and unproductive.

The evidence defends my stance perfectly well. Marg has already changed ad hoc to whatever suits her agenda and she now attempts that with synonyms regarding Dan's honesty. It doesn't matter because wherever she lands she is just as wrong and just as offensive.

Roger attempts to find phrases of agreement months back near the beginning of his dialogue with Dan which are found in the mess of make up stories (smuggling in the manuscript) and having no knowledge of the history (J.S. was not interested in theology, holy smokes) - the very things that are being pointed out to you in the first place. My point Roger was that if you say, good point you mean it rather than turning right about face back to the position of stubborn special pleading and make up stories. You accept the fallacy so the discussion can progress. You just move on as if nothing has changed whatsoever.

I don't think I can stomach the convuluted nausea that Oliver Cowdery failing to translate isn't the obvious evidence in the record of J.S. alone that it clearly is, but it really is now evidence for S/R. It's back to work this week anyway, fellow lawyers don't take "wrongheaded" as personal, because it's not.

Take care and best, mikwut
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Uncle Dale »

marg wrote:...
Their lack of mentioning a Bible indicates he either concealed a Bible, if not then it is a good indication some acted as accomplices keeping silent on information they appreciated was detrimental to reveal. They made it known that Smith used nothing to copy from, so if they were all honest, one or more of them should have mentioned the use of a Bible. But of course, they couldn't because to do so would expose the con of existence of Nephites..so the likelihood, contrary to Dan's position that they were all duped, is that some at the very least were accomplices..willing to lie by omission of obvious important information.


Can we point out any examples in Mormon history when members were
reluctant to divulge information about their leaders, which might cause
the Gentiles to call into question the motives and methods of the leaders?

I believe that there were Saints in Nauvoo who knew full well that
Joseph, Hyrum and William Smith were practicing polygamists, and yet
those same members went to far as to keep silent when the RLDS
Church was founded, primarily upon the base of Smith's monogamy.

I also believe that there were Mormons in Cedar City and the surrounding
villages who, from 1857 until the mid-1870s, kept silent, knowing full well
that leaders of the LDS Iron County Militia had ordered and conducted
the massacre at Mountain Meadows.

I believe that numerous historical examples can be cited, of Mormons
who have kept quiet their knowledge of events which, when exposed,
would tend to prove harmful to their church.

My saying that does not mean that, in all cases, these silent members
were basically dishonest people -- but keeping quiet can aid the lying
schemes of leaders -- I think that is a self-evident proposition.

We cannot go back in time to cross-examine David Whitmer -- and so
we cannot determine whether or not a Bible was on the table, or in the
room, or even in the house, when the Whitmer witnesses scrutinized
the "translation" interactions going on between Smith and Cowdery. We
do not know whether or not the Whitmers ever saw a Bible back then.

But I think we can agree that they said nothing to undermine those
same "translation" interactions and participants. For example, we see
no evidence of the Whitmers denouncing anything Martin Harris said or
did during his controversial career. We see no evidence of the Whitmers
denouncing Cowdery's claims to encounters with various heavenly beings,
(even though David Whitmer thought the establishment of the higher
priesthood was a heaven-daring scheme of apostate leaders).

Until the Brodieites can tell us what the cut-off date for Oliver Cowdery's
honest character actually was, I believe that we must question his
truthfulness even as far back as his 1829 "revelation." He may have been
more truthful in 1829 than he was in 1836 -- but before I accept that
conclusion, the Brodieites will have to present their case supporting him.
They could even publish a book called "The Scribe as a Witness," I suppose.

They will no doubt argue that application of Occam's razor to the case
will favor Oliver's total honesty up through the conclusion of the 1828-29
Book of Mormon "translation." Thus rendering him a completely reliable
and trustworthy witness to all events associated with that period.

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_marg
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _marg »

mikwut wrote: fellow lawyers don't take "wrongheaded" as personal, because it's not.

I'm not offended personally by your remarks and I doubt Roger is. This is not a matter of taking anything personal, it's is a matter of whether or not honest productive discussion can proceed on this issue with you or not. Your excessive derogatory rhetorical games, distortions and misrepresentations of other's arguments indicate it's not likely to happen.
_marg
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _marg »

Uncle Dale wrote:
My saying that does not mean that, in all cases, these silent members
were basically dishonest people


Well this is my speculation. I think the Smiths having had a significant amount of their assets stolen from them ..probably about $100,000 in today's money and the entire family had few opportunities and few prospects open for to obtain minimal financial security ..that they were highly motivated to find something which would support the family..just in their basic needs. Having significant assets stolen may have made them bitter and think that God doesn't punish those who steal and and reward those who work hard. In addition there were many start up religions at the time. Such an enterprise would be suitable for their family who all need to find work, it wouldn't require technical training or a large financial investment. The main requirement would be sales ability.

To them, it was not as if they'd be hurting or stealing from anyone. People would be joining of their own free will and if they didn't belong to their religious group then they'd be members of some other religious group. A start up religion could potentially financially support the family.

So this idea of starting a religion was likely in Rigdon's mind. He probably was the catalyst to get the Smith's thinking about it. By subtle questioning and in his line of work he met many people he could put feelers out to find suitable co-workers in the venture. He may have lucked out, perhaps one person was a people connector who recognized the smith family as being ideal candidates and connected Rigdon to them.

None of those involved would look upon this enterprise as being dishonest because in their minds they weren't taking advantage of anyone, they were merely taking individuals away from other religious groups and they could convince themselves that those religious groups took advantage of people in ways they wouldn't. If their goals are well intended, if they convinced themselves that God really exists but doesn't care or look over each religious group then they'd look upon establishing a religion which they intended with good goals as an honest enterprise and justified.
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Uncle Dale »

marg wrote:
Uncle Dale wrote:
My saying that does not mean that, in all cases, these silent members
were basically dishonest people


Well this is my speculation. I think the Smiths having had a significant amount of their assets stolen from them ..probably about $100,000 in today's money and the entire family had few opportunities and few prospects open for to obtain minimal financial security ..that they were highly motivated to find something which would support the family..just in their basic needs.


I suppose it is true -- that the family lost its wealth and status
at an early date -- but I am not convinced that they were the
innocent victims of evil schemers, out to steal their fortune. At
the very least I'd like to see some evidence showing that Joseph
Smith, Sr. was not complicit in his own financial losses.

Nor am I convinced that the family was honest, rational and
functional before the financial setbacks. I am not convinced
that family members had typical interactions (or even what we
might think of as normal interactions) one with another.

Having significant assets stolen may have made them bitter and think that God doesn't punish those who steal and and reward those who work hard.


I do not know about the "hard work" part of the social equation.
I continually get the impression that the Smiths felt entitled to
a prominence and lifestyle which did not include honest manual
labor. I wonder of Alvin might have been the only real hard
worker in the bunch -- when it came to clearing timber, farming
and property improvements. His death may have marked a more
significant turning point in the Smith family dynamics than did
their earlier financial failures.

In addition there were many start up religions at the time. Such an enterprise would be suitable for their family who all need to find work, it wouldn't require technical training or a large financial investment. The main requirement would be sales ability.


I see Mother Smith (at least) as the argumentative religious
"nut," who was compelled to win each and every argument she
had with neighbors and family members over religion -- as a
superstitious, irrational matriarch who served as a very poor
role model for her impressionable children. I see the Smiths'
promotion of their son's religion as a natural outgrowth of the
family's interests and viewpoints -- of their alienation from the
mainstream Christian sects of that era, including the Presbyterian
congregation in Palmyra. I think that they "eased" into religion,
from superstition, money-digging, fortune-telling and dishonesty.
I think it was a natural transition for them.

To them, it was not as if they'd be hurting or stealing from anyone. People would be joining of their own free will and if they didn't belong to their religious group then they'd be members of some other religious group. A start up religion could potentially financially support the family.

So this idea of starting a religion was likely in Rigdon's mind. He probably was the catalyst to get the Smith's thinking about it. By subtle questioning and in his line of work he met many people he could put feelers out to find suitable co-workers in the venture. He may have lucked out, perhaps one person was a people connector who recognized the smith family as being ideal candidates and connected Rigdon to them.

None of those involved would look upon this enterprise as being dishonest because in their minds they weren't taking advantage of anyone, they were merely taking individuals away from other religious groups and they could convince themselves that those religious groups took advantage of people in ways they wouldn't. If their goals are well intended, if they convinced themselves that God really exists but doesn't care or look over each religious group then they'd look upon establishing a religion which they intended with good goals as an honest enterprise and justified.


My view is that Sidney Rigdon truly believed that Smith possessed
supernatural powers -- that Smith's visions were as "real" as
Rigdon's own trances and epiphanies -- and that the two men
shared a considerable overlap in character, motives, etc.
Rigdon was an experienced preacher and crowd manipulator,
but he lacked the personal charisma and loyalty-invoking
personality of Smith.

I think that together they more or less completed each other.
of the two, I'd guess that Rigdon was the more sincere
religionist and that Smith was more steeped in superstition.

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_marg
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _marg »

Ok Dan, I'm just going to continue with your latest response on the ad hoc, but just the second section as I addressed the first section previously. Please note I do explain why responses to your counter arguments are not ad hoc fallacies.

Dan wrote:An ad hoc can simply be a response to adverse evidence, whether or not it’s an assumption added to the main theory. The counter-evidence doesn’t have to be “objective verifiable”, especially in history. Counter-evidence can be an argument (e.g., a contradiction in the main theory), it could be testimony, it could be a document. It just has to be evidentiary in some form. To require counter-evidence to be “objectively verifiable” would be to shift the burden of proof. In other words, you have made a theory true until proven wrong by the highest caliber evidence—likely higher than the theory it’s attempting to confute.


Ok…let’s take ad hoc fallacy out of the context of science. I don’t think I agree with you that “objective verifiability” isn’t required of ad hoc fallacy even out of the context of science. Here's why, if the argument or just the counter argument is a matter of mere opinion, unless there is an agreed to means beforehand on how to determine superiority of views there is no means to justify which opinion is better without some parameter to do so. Objectively verifiable evidence and reasoning used in science is a means to judge which claim can be relied upon. Predictions which bear out support that this method works.

So taking a look at ad hoc fallacy outside of science..let’s look at the horse/tapir situation.

Mormonism claim: There were according to the Book of Mormon, horses living in America during the period 600 B.C. to 400 A.D.

Critic Counter claim: There is no scientific evidence horses lived in America during that period.

Mormon apologetic response:..There were tapirs living during that time period and Smith was translating in his mind, but didn’t know the word for Tapir so to him using his knowledge and vocabulary he said “horse”.



So what is happening here is it’s an irrational response(lacking evidence and reasoning) meant solely to maintain and justify the original claim. There is no objective evidence that Smith was translating anything or had any such ability. Those trying to maintain the original claim of horses in America during the time period in question are changing the background assumptions, 'that words Smith expressed meant what he said'. If meanings of words can simply be changed, then the counter argument against the original claim is done away with and can not be maintained and rationally supported. There is no rational argument using objective reasoning and evidence against the original claim when an irrational argument is presenting changing the background assumption that Smith meant what he said. So future rational discourse is not possible.

This is an example of ad hoc fallacy. This discussion is not simply a matter of one opinion versus another …the counter argument successfully argued using evidence and reasoning against the original claim of horses existing. It employs a justified means to judge a claim using objective verifiable evidence. The counter Mormon apologetic response has no warrants for justification, it's an irrational response meant only to maintain original claim against the rational critical counter.

Now let’s look at what you call ad hoc fallacy involving the S/R theory.

S/R theory: MF existed and Hurlbut might have sold it.

Dan: There is no evidence of MF. Evidence against MF’s existence is Book of Mormon witness statements that Smith did not use any other material during translation process.

S/R response: There are warrants to justify MF existed. Hurlbut stopping in Palmyra to inform and have them print he obtained what he wanted and that Rigdon was the person who added religious matter to Book of Mormon. Conneaut witnesses, printer and Amity witnesses all testify to a Spalding manuscript written in biblical style not consistent with MSCC.

Dan’s response: that’s ad hoc fallacy..because it's meant to maintain original claim, and solely for that claim and the response is not objectively verifiable.


Notice Dan the difference between the first situation ..in which the critic response is science which has been objectively verified and accepted. The Mormon apologetic response is not denying that horses didn’t live in America, their response though changes the background assumptions that words expressed through Smith's translation have to mean what they say.

In your ad hoc fallacy accusation against S/R theory…your evidence of Book of Mormon witness claims is highly unreliable evidence. It’s essentially their say so.and they have a vested interest, and not objectively independent. What they claim is not at all verifiable. It is only your opinion that they are reliable.

The S/R response to you Dan is not ad hoc fallacy. The response to you is a response to your opinion , not a response to accepted objective verifiable evidence. The response is an explanation why S/R advocates are justified in assuming a MF existed. They have strong warrants to do so.

So to sum up I do think a component necessary for ad hoc fallacy to be justified is a means to rationally determine whether a counter claim (Dan's counter claim) is objectively verifiable. If the counter claim is essentially a matter of opinion then there is no justified reason why that opinion should be superior to the original claim.

The faulty reasoning is not occurring at the point of the response to you Dan. The faulty reasoning can just as easily be occuring at the point of the counter claim..(or the point you come in to critique S/R theory) because your critique or argument has no means by which to deem it superior to the S/R claim, as long as the S/R claim has justified warrants.
Last edited by Guest on Mon May 23, 2011 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
_marg
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _marg »

Uncle Dale wrote:I suppose it is true -- that the family lost its wealth and status
at an early date -- but I am not convinced that they were the
innocent victims of evil schemers, out to steal their fortune. At
the very least I'd like to see some evidence showing that Joseph
Smith, Sr. was not complicit in his own financial losses.

Nor am I convinced that the family was honest, rational and
functional before the financial setbacks. I am not convinced
that family members had typical interactions (or even what we
might think of as normal interactions) one with another.


Well they got off to a good start in the marriage financially. $1000 back then could probably easily buy a farm. But not everyone want to farm.

Some people work hard, extremely hard but hate physical work.

The father it seems was a high risk taker looking for ways to make money without doing too much backbreaking work. But he may have come across as someone foolish to to others, easy to take advantage of. He certainly lost money fairly easily.

I do not know about the "hard work" part of the social equation.
I continually get the impression that the Smiths felt entitled to
a prominence and lifestyle which did not include honest manual
labor. I wonder of Alvin might have been the only real hard
worker in the bunch -- when it came to clearing timber, farming
and property improvements. His death may have marked a more
significant turning point in the Smith family dynamics than did
their earlier financial failures.


I can relate this to my family. I have a brother always on the look out for quick rich scheme and he's always the one being taken advantage of and never learns from his mistakes. He avoids physical work as much as possible, yet he works harder than anyone I know for much less money. Up at 6 a.m. everyday, running a small upholstery business which entails cold selling to people in their homes. It allows him to golf some afternoons..and he's single with no other family responsibilities. He often ends his work day at 9 p.m. If he lived back in Smith's day without hesitation he would have joined in the early stages such a group. He would have loved it.

So I don't think my brother is lazy though many would think he is.

I see Mother Smith (at least) as the argumentative religious
"nut," who was compelled to win each and every argument she
had with neighbors and family members over religion -- as a
superstitious, irrational matriarch who served as a very poor
role model for her impressionable children.


Well the poor woman was married to someone who made poor highly risky decisions. So in order to protect her family she may have felt the need to step in and figure out how best they could survive.

promotion of their son's religion as a natural outgrowth of the
family's interests and viewpoints -- of their alienation from the
mainstream Christian sects of that era, including the Presbyterian
congregation in Palmyra. I think that they "eased" into religion,
from superstition, money-digging, fortune-telling and dishonesty.
I think it was a natural transition for them.


Yes, Smith and they would have seen how easily people are manipulated via their experience with the treasure seeking. I don't think that would make them dishonest, but rather they realized an opportunity which if they didn't take it others would. They realized people liked treasure seeking and it didn't matter whether it was a con or not and likewise people like religion..doesn't matter if it is a con or not. So honesty wasn't part of the equation, they were fulfilling offering something people wanted.

My view is that Sidney Rigdon truly believed that Smith possessed
supernatural powers -- that Smith's visions were as "real" as
Rigdon's own trances and epiphanies -- and that the two men
shared a considerable overlap in character, motives, etc.
Rigdon was an experienced preacher and crowd manipulator,
but he lacked the personal charisma and loyalty-invoking
personality of Smith.

I think that together they more or less completed each other.
of the two, I'd guess that Rigdon was the more sincere
religionist and that Smith was more steeped in superstition.


Perhaps Rigdon thought Smith had or may have had supernatural powers, and perhaps he thought he himself had special traits or abilities and even chosen by a God to start his own religion. But Smith I think was likely a deist or even an atheist and in my opinion not superstitious himself. I don't think he believed in an interfering in mankind sort of God. He understood human nature well and enjoyed the thrill of the power and control over them. Although to him people were easily manipulated and gullible he liked people with their weaknesses and all. But I don't think it bothered him to knowingly take advantage of others even if at times they suffered because of his influence and decisions.
_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »

Uncle Dale wrote:I suppose it is true -- that the family lost its wealth and status
at an early date -- but I am not convinced that they were the
innocent victims of evil schemers, out to steal their fortune. At
the very least I'd like to see some evidence showing that Joseph
Smith, Sr. was not complicit in his own financial losses.

Nor am I convinced that the family was honest, rational and
functional before the financial setbacks. I am not convinced
that family members had typical interactions (or even what we
might think of as normal interactions) one with another.


marg wrote:Well they got off to a good start in the marriage financially. $1000 back then could probably easily buy a farm. But not everyone want to farm.

Some people work hard, extremely hard but hate physical work.

The father it seems was a high risk taker looking for ways to make money without doing too much backbreaking work. But he may have come across as someone foolish to to others, easy to take advantage of. He certainly lost money fairly easily.


Uncle Dale wrote:I do not know about the "hard work" part of the social equation.
I continually get the impression that the Smiths felt entitled to
a prominence and lifestyle which did not include honest manual
labor. I wonder of Alvin might have been the only real hard
worker in the bunch -- when it came to clearing timber, farming
and property improvements. His death may have marked a more
significant turning point in the Smith family dynamics than did
their earlier financial failures.


marg wrote:I can relate this to my family. I have a brother always on the look out for quick rich scheme and he's always the one being taken advantage of and never learns from his mistakes. He avoids physical work as much as possible, yet he works harder than anyone I know for much less money. Up at 6 a.m. everyday, running a small upholstery business which entails cold selling to people in their homes. It allows him to golf some afternoons..and he's single with no other family responsibilities. He often ends his work day at 9 p.m. If he lived back in Smith's day without hesitation he would have joined in the early stages such a group. He would have loved it.

So I don't think my brother is lazy though many would think he is.


Uncle Dale wrote:I see Mother Smith (at least) as the argumentative religious
"nut," who was compelled to win each and every argument she
had with neighbors and family members over religion -- as a
superstitious, irrational matriarch who served as a very poor
role model for her impressionable children.


marg wrote:Well the poor woman was married to someone who made poor highly risky decisions. So in order to protect her family she may have felt the need to step in and figure out how best they could survive.


I am going to quote a bit from an article on the Smith's without any further comment. (Donald L. Enders, “The Joseph Smith, Sr., Family: Farmers of the Genesee,”) The information can be found at http://rsc.BYU.edu/archived/joseph-smith-prophet-man/16-joseph-smith-sr-family-farmers-genesee

You may believe what you wish.

The Joseph Smith, Sr. family lived in the Palmyra, New York, area for 14 years—from 1816 through 1830. They spent 12 of those 14 years on a farm in a “sequestered neighborhood” (Townsend 1) two miles south of the village near the Palmyra-Manchester town line. Lucy Mack Smith’s reminiscences, plus Joseph Smith, Jr.’s, and William Smith’s recollections, paint an admirable picture of those years. In just ten years, says Lucy, the Smiths turned their heavily forested hundred acres into a productive farm “admired for its good order and industry” (Lucy Smith 1). They cleared 60 acres (thirty in the first year alone), cultivated approximately 35 acres, fenced the farm, planted a large apple orchard, and tapped 1,200 to 1,500 sugar maples, producing 1,000 pounds of sugar annually. They also built a log home, a frame home, a barn, a cooper’s shop, and other outbuildings. By fall 1823, the season of Alvin’s death, the Smiths “enjoyed their third harvest,” and within five years they had completed the clearing and fencing. The Smith reminiscences recall with pride that every able family member cooperated fully, showing “the strictest kind of economy and labor” (Lucy Smith 49; see also Peterson 11).

This account is an impressive record, not only of achievement but of family unity, thrift, and exemplary work habits. But were the Smiths the effective and successful farm laborers their accounts portray? A number of their Palmyra and Manchester neighbors and acquaintances said no. After the Smiths moved away in 1830, some associates went on record with accusations that the Smiths had done little to improve the farm, had cleared only a small acreage (Deming), and were “lazy,” and “indolent” (Howe 262). One neighbor claimed that the Smiths’ “great objective appeared to be to live without work” (260), while another said, “It was a mystery to their neighbors how [the Smiths] got their living” (249). Some even asserted that the Smiths had no legal claim to those property but were mere “squatters” (Tucker 12–13; see also Cook 219).

Which version is correct? Land and tax records, farm account books and correspondence, soil surveys, and interviews with archaeological reports, historic building surveys, and interviews with agricultural historians and specialists of early nineteenth-century New York suggest that the Smith version is an honest one. These sources, which generally have not been part of the scholarly reconstructions of the origin period of Mormon history, yield data about the process of buying and developing land, farm labor, crops and markets, farm values, farm building construction, and agricultural knowledge and practices. Some of these sources specifically mention the Joseph Smith, Sr., family. Used in conjunction with traditional sources, these new sources permit a much clearer view about the Smiths’ work ethics and habits and of their accomplishments and failures as farm people. I will cast in question form the Smiths’ assertions about how they developed the farm, then draw from the combined sources data relevant to those claims.

Question 4: Did the Smiths clear land, plant fields and an orchard, make the fences, and construct the building as they said they did?

Here tax records which define farm values as the combined value of the land and improvements made on the land are an important source. Generally, buildings represented 50 to 60 percent of the assessed value of farms. Cleared land, fencing, orchards, gardens, and woodlots were generally less than half of the value. In 1830, in rural Manchester Township for example, the mean value of one hundred acres in “developed” condition was $1,285. A developed hundred acre parcel translates into about two-thirds of the land cleared of timber, the perimeter and interior fenced with 25 to 30 acres of cultivated fields, a woodlot and meadow, and a log or small frame house and a barn. Improved land represented about $550 of that amount. About $735 represented the value of the buildings (John Mott).

In 1820, when the Smiths purchased their hundred acres of heavily forested “undeveloped” land it was valued at $700 (Assessment Rolls 17). The 1830 tax records assess its value at $1,300. The $600 increase represents considerable development by standards of that time. The Smiths’ 60 acres of cleared land, divided into 30 to 35 acres of cultivated fields, 10 to 15 acres of meadow, an orchard of 200 apple trees, and the woodlot and fencing, represented about $250 to $275 of the $600 increase. The Smith barn, which historical sources suggest was of common design, would have been valued at $150 to $175; the cooper’s shop, with “wood floor and loft” (Research File) at $50, animal enclosures at $25, and the “unfinished” but inhabited frame home at &75 to $125 (Ibid and John Mott; also William H. Siles). The value of the buildings (about $325), when added to the value of the improved land ($250-$275), agrees very closely with the $600 increase in the value during the decade of the 1820s. This data must be viewed as verification of the accuracy of the Smiths’ memory of their improvements.

Consider what those developments represent. Based on horticultural studies, approximately 100 trees per acre grew in that area. To clear the 60 acres, the Smiths cut down about 6,000 trees. (Marion). A large percentage measured from four to six feet in diameter, and grew to heights of one hundred feet or more (Peterson). These figures help us to better appreciate William Smith’s statement: “If you will figure up how much work it should take to clear sixty acres of heavy timber land . . . trees you could not conveniently cut down, you can tell whether we were lazy or not” (Ibid 11).

The Smith farm had a perimeter of one and 2/3 miles. To fence that distance with a standard stone and singer fence required moving tons of stone from fields to farm perimeter, then cutting and placing about 4,000 ten-foot rails. This does not include the labor and materials involved in fencing the barnyard, garden, pastures, and orchard, which, at a conservative estimate, required an additional 2,000 to 3,000 cut wooden rails (McNall 59, 84, 87, 91, 110–11, and 144). Clearly, this work alone—all of it separate from the actual labor of farming—represents a prodigious amount of concerted planning and labor.

Question 5: How did the Smith farm compare to other farms in the township and “neighborhood”?

The 1830 tax records for Manchester Township contain the evaluations of 176 farms of more than 50 acres in size. The average value per acre for those farms was $13. The mean value was $12.85. The Smith farm was appraised at the average value per acre. Seventy-one farms were valued at a higher rate per acre than the Smith farm, 90 were valued below theirs, and 14 were valued at the same level. The farms rating higher than the Smiths ranged from $13.10 to $18 per acre, while those of less value were appraised at $12.90 to $8 (Ibid).

The average size of the township’s 253 farms was 85 acres. The mean was 63 acres. Sixty-two of the 253 farms were larger than the Smith farm. They ranged from 105 to just over 300 acres. Twenty-two farms were the same size as the Smith; 168 were smaller and decreased in size from 98 to 10 acres (Ibid).

The Smith “neighborhood” farms are of particular interest because their owners included some of those who accused the Smiths of being “lazy, indolent and shiftless.” Forty-two families resided in the “neighborhood,” that is, the area along Stafford and Canadaiqua Roads extending three miles south from the Palmyra-Manchester town line. Of these 42, eleven had larger farms than the Smiths’, ranging from about 125 acres to 215 acres. Four had farms the same size. Twenty-five were smaller, ranging downward from 98 to 14 acres. The average size farm in the “neighborhood” was 83 acres and the mean was 71 acres. Twelve of the neighborhood farms were assessed at a greater value per acre than the Smith farm ranging from $14 to $18 per acre. Five farms, including the Smiths’, were valued at $13 per acre, while 25 were valued lower, from $12.96 to $10 per acre.

The Staffords, Stoddards, Chases, and Caprons were neighborhood residents who spoke poorly of the Smiths. Only one of the ten families in this four-family group had property assessed more valuable than the Smiths’. Of the five families in the Stafford family group, none had a higher appraisal than the Smiths. Abraham Stafford’s 162 acres was valued at $12.96, William Stafford’s 100 acres at $12.50 per acre, Joshua Stafford’s 123 acres at $12.20 per acre, David Stafford’s 20 acres at $11 per acre, and John Stafford’s 60 acres at $10 per acre (Assessment Rolls 21–22). Only Edmund Chase of the Chase family group was still farming in Manchester Township in 1830. His 29-acre farm, bordering east on the Smith farm, was valued at $10 per acre (Assessment Rolls 6).

Russell Stoddard, the man who, according to Lucy Smith, cheated them out of their farm, lived a mile and a half south of the Smiths in a frame home with a barn, outbuildings, an orchard, a handsome cedar grove, and a small sawmill. His 98-acre farm was considered “number one quality” and was valued at $16 per acre (Assessment Roll 21). Stoddard owned other farms, speculated in land, and built houses. After Alvin’s death, he contracted with the Smiths to complete their frame home enough to allow them to move into it. [For identification of Russell Stoddard as the carpenter who finished building the Smith’s frame home after Alvin’s death, see George Albert Smith Diary.] When fully “enclosed” after the Smiths moved away, it was comparable in size to Stoddard’s home (Research File). The 150 acre farm of Squire Stoddard, Russell’s brother, lay immediately south of the Smith farm and was valued at $12 per acre. Joseph Capron’s land, a five-acre parcel situated within 200 yards of the Smith home, was valued at $10 per acre (Assessment Rolls 5, 22).

In comparison to others in the township and neighborhood, the Smiths’ efforts and accomplishments were superior to most. In the township, only 40 percent of the farms were worth more per acre and just 25 percent were larger. In the “neighborhood,” only 29 percent of the farms were worth more and only 26 percent were larger (Assessment Rolls 1–34).



Question 6: Does the fact that the Smiths worked at day-labor to provide for themselves and pay for their farm support the charge that they were “lazy and indolent” and “without industry”? Day laboring implied low work, and people who were employed for short term, often at menial tasks, were considered “low folk,” unrefined and socially undesirable. What “day labor” did the Smiths perform?

Sources document over two dozen kinds of labor the Smiths performed for hire, including digging and rocking up wells, mowing, coopering, constructing cisterns, hunting and trapping, teaching school, providing domestic service, and making split-wood chairs, brooks and baskets. The Smiths also harvested, did modest carpentry work, dug for salt, constructed stone walls and fireplaces, flailed grain, cut and sold cordwood, carted, made cider, and “witched” for water. They sold garden produce, made bee-gums, washed clothes, painted oil-cloth coverings, butchered, dug coal, painted chairs, hauled stone, and made maple syrup and sugar (Research File).

Joseph Jr.’s account suggests honest industry in the face of difficult conditions: “Being in indigent circumstances,” he says, “[we] were obliged to labour hard for the support of [our] Large family and . . . it required exertions of all [family members] that were able to render any assistances” (Jessee 4). The Smith men had a reputation as skilled and diligent workers. William Smith asserted that “whenever the neighbors wanted a good day’s work done they knew where they could get a good hand” (Peterson 11). Eight wells in three townships are attributed to the Smiths (Research File). They likely dug and rocked others, including some of the 11 wells dug on the farm of Lemuel Durfee, who lived a little east of Martin Harris. The Smiths did considerable work for this kindly old Quaker; some of their labor served as rent for their farm after it passed into his ownership in December 1825 (Ralph Cator; Lemuel Durfee Farm books).

Father Joseph, Hyrum, and Joseph Jr. were coopers. Coopering was an exacting trade, particularly if the barrel was designed to hold liquid. Dye tubs, barrels, and water and sap buckets were products of the Smiths’ cooper shop. They also repaired leaky barrels for neighbors at cidering time. (Research File).

Sugaring was another labor-intensive work. William recalls, “To gather the sap and make sugar and molasses from [1,200–1,500 sugar] trees was no lazy job” (Peterson 11). Lucy said they produced an average of “one thousand pounds” (50) of sugar a year. One neighbor reportedly said that the Smiths made 7,000 pounds of sugar one season and won a premium for their effort at the county fair (Brodie 10–11). Many people could make maple syrup, but it required considerable skill to make sugar and particularly good skill, dexterity, and commitment to make high quality sugar.

These labors indicate a strong work attitude, and the record of their hiring does not substantiate accusations that they were an “idle” family.



Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
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