Free will - Is there such a thing?

[_Alfredo]

Those for free-will can never defend the purported existence of free-will... that is, after the equally problematic task of defining free-will in a coherent and falsifiable manner. Arguments against free-will are secondary.

[_madeleine]

*shrug*

The definition of free-will I adhere to is one that is based on all things being ordered towards God. We are created, rational beings. Free-will is not irrational.

[_Quasimodo]

An ice cream cone might be nice. Do I want chocolate or vanilla? Today, vanilla sounds good. I like them both and may well chose chocolate tomorrow.

No one has a gun to my head saying "it's vanilla, or you die". I don't think God cares much which I choose. If there is a God, He/ She should be spending omnipresent judgement on more important matters. Even if it's a Mormon God, I don't think there is any mention of ice cream flavors in the WoW.

I suppose one could say that some body chemistry is affecting my desire for a certain food, but I think that would be a pretty thin argument.

I think that this is free will.

[_madeleine]

An ice cream cone might be nice. Do I want chocolate or vanilla? Today, vanilla sounds good. I like them both and may well chose chocolate tomorrow.

No one has a gun to my head saying "it's vanilla, or you die". I don't think God cares much which I choose. If there is a God, He/ She should be spending omnipresent judgement on more important matters. Even if it's a Mormon God, I don't think there is any mention of ice cream flavors in the WoW.

I suppose one could say that some body chemistry is affecting my desire for a certain food, but I think that would be a pretty thin argument.

I think that this is free will.

I was thinking of free will in regards to moral choices. Vanilla might be less moral than chocolate, I'm not sure. I'll check with a priest. ;)

Moral choices are made among the mundane. For example, it isn't the flavor you're choosing, but how you choose to treat the person serving it.

[_Alfredo]

I suppose one could say that some body chemistry is affecting my desire for a certain food, but I think that would be a pretty thin argument.

Do explain. Why should we prefer free-will as an explanation over biology? Also, before you do... I've yet to see a definition of free-will, only the description of a choice made with free-will and not an description of what made the choice.

[_Gadianton]

If God does not control one's destination but merely foretells with perfect accuracy, there is no preclusion of free will.

That's like saying, if a scientist does not control the orbit of the planet but foretells it with perfect accuracy, there is no preclusion of the planet's free will to pick its path.

[_malaise]

An ice cream cone might be nice. Do I want chocolate or vanilla? Today, vanilla sounds good. I like them both and may well chose chocolate tomorrow.

No one has a gun to my head saying "it's vanilla, or you die". I don't think God cares much which I choose. If there is a God, He/ She should be spending omnipresent judgement on more important matters. Even if it's a Mormon God, I don't think there is any mention of ice cream flavors in the WoW.

I suppose one could say that some body chemistry is affecting my desire for a certain food, but I think that would be a pretty thin argument.

I think that this is free will.

It depends on what you mean by free will. Your dismissal of the brain chemistry argument is weak, but the argument i made earlier in the thread does not turn on everything be caused by body chemistry. You are choosing a vanilla ice cream cone because you prefer it. Why do you prefer it? Because a chain of events led to the development of your personality and made you want an ice cream cone. The fact that you actually want it does not mean something did not cause you to feel that desire-and that ultimately is why 'free will' does not exist. If external factors cause us to develop our preferences then we have no real control over our choices.

[_Quasimodo]

I was thinking of free will in regards to moral choices. Vanilla might be less moral than chocolate, I'm not sure. I'll check with a priest. ;)

Moral choices are made among the mundane. For example, it isn't the flavor you're choosing, but how you choose to treat the person serving it.

I understand that the question at hand is related to life choices, but I also think that any true example of free will serves to prove a point. If we can freely choose an ice cream flavor, we can also freely choose in other matters.

[Guest]

I suppose one could say that some body chemistry is affecting my desire for a certain food, but I think that would be a pretty thin argument.

Do explain. Why should we prefer free-will as an explanation over biology? Also, before you do... I've yet to see a definition of free-will, only the description of a choice made with free-will and not an description of what made the choice.

Your question could well be worded the other way around. Why should we prefer biology over free will? What evidence is there for a biological gain in one flavor or the other? Especially since I like both equally.

I suppose that there may be some deep seated psychological reason for choosing vanilla (I saw a beautiful, white cloud on the way to the ice cream store that affected my subconscious), but it's not likely.

(A quick edit to answer a question I neglected) There are many reasons to make choices. Desire, need, whimsy. All work. I think that free will is being able to opt for a particular choice without having to defer to another's wishes. The internal reason we make a particular choice is not part of the definition.

[_Quasimodo]

It depends on what you mean by free will. Your dismissal of the brain chemistry argument is weak

Really? Do you think there would be a strong biochemical preference for vanilla over chocolate since I like them both? I've never heard of that sort of discrimination in biochemical cravings. It's usually something like "we need carbs" or "we need protein". Even if that were the case, would a craving negate the concept of free will? Does any reason for wanting to make a particular choice preclude free will?

Why do you prefer it? Because a chain of events led to the development of your personality and made you want an ice cream cone. The fact that you actually want it does not mean something did not cause you to feel that desire-and that ultimately is why 'free will' does not exist. If external factors cause us to develop our preferences then we have no real control over our choices.

To me, this boarders on sophism. Our choices are ours (regardless of their origins). Making a choice out of desire or whimsy is free will.