Trajectory of Danger: Becoming a Political Organization

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_Buffalo
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Re: Trajectory of Danger: Becoming a Political Organization

Post by _Buffalo »

bcspace wrote:
when you preach, and you do, that one can not be a good Mormon and be politically involved with any party but the republican party or derivative thereof, then yes, your personal philosophy is a terrible thing.


Since you couldn't answer the first question, here is another: Is it wrong to stack political philosophy against religion to see if it's consistent?

I think the problem you are having is that when you stack up beliefs and modus operandi, you can't help but come to the same conclusion I have come to and are angry about it. Face reality; a good Democrat cannot possibly be a good Mormon if "good" is defined as believing in and supporting the philosophies of the respective organizations.

Harry Reid and all Mormons who are active in the Democratic party or any party even more extremely leftwing than that are apostates of the highest order simply by comparing beliefs.


Thanks for your work in discrediting the LDS church. :)
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_3sheets2thewind
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Re: Trajectory of Danger: Becoming a Political Organization

Post by _3sheets2thewind »

bcspace wrote:
when you preach, and you do, that one can not be a good Mormon and be politically involved with any party but the republican party or derivative thereof, then yes, your personal philosophy is a terrible thing.


Since you couldn't answer the first question, here is another: Is it wrong to stack political philosophy against religion to see if it's consistent?

I think the problem you are having is that when you stack up beliefs and modus operandi, you can't help but come to the same conclusion I have come to and are angry about it. Face reality; a good Democrat cannot possibly be a good Mormon if "good" is defined as believing in and supporting the philosophies of the respective organizations.

Harry Reid and all Mormons who are active in the Democratic party or any party even more extremely leftwing than that are apostates of the highest order simply by comparing beliefs.


I wasn't even trying to answer the question, I quoted you to grab your attention. And speaking of apostates of the highest order, that includes those who teach their own philosophy and claim it as LDS Doctrine; nothing worse than usurping the position of Prophet or even God in order to claim your own personal philosophy is LDS Doctrine. are sure you are not a closet apostate; and as I recall in a bishopric too - theres an apostate of the highest order, one who using his calling to promote his own philosophy as LDS Doctrine.
_bcspace
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Re: Trajectory of Danger: Becoming a Political Organization

Post by _bcspace »

I wasn't even trying to answer the question, I quoted you to grab your attention.


Which further illustrates my point.

And speaking of apostates of the highest order, that includes those who teach their own philosophy and claim it as LDS Doctrine; nothing worse than usurping the position of Prophet or even God in order to claim your own personal philosophy is LDS Doctrine.


Amen.

are sure you are not a closet apostate; and as I recall in a bishopric too - theres an apostate of the highest order, one who using his calling to promote his own philosophy as LDS Doctrine.


Glad I'm not one of those. I merely apply LDS doctrine which is in opposition to Socialism, homosexual marriage, feminism, planned parenthood (which goes waaaaaay beyond the sin of abortion as a general method of birth control) and the like. Heck, it's even been established that the LoC is not some sort of Christian socialism but rather requires capitalism and the free market to swim in (private property being a fundamental principle of the LoC according to the Church).

So, as we go down the list, we see that the Democrat Party is in opposition to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His Church on every front. Isn't there a temple recommend question about supporting, affiliating with, or agreeing with such groups? Just sayin'.

Plus the OP implies that being against communism and for limited government, a Constitutional Republic, and personal freedom is a terrible thing. I don't think that was meant, but that is the effect of the words.
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_bcspace
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Re: Trajectory of Danger: Becoming a Political Organization

Post by _bcspace »

Thanks for your work in discrediting the LDS church. :)


Methinks you don't understand the parable of the wheat and the tares. How much the Church is willing to take, I don't know, but I do know that's the general idea.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_Morley
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Re: Trajectory of Danger: Becoming a Political Organization

Post by _Morley »

bcspace wrote:Plus the OP implies that being against communism and for limited government, a Constitutional Republic, and personal freedom is a terrible thing. I don't think that was meant, but that is the effect of the words.


Nah, I think it implies that the principles of Cleon Skousen, Glenn Beck and Mr. John Birch are terrible things.
_Droopy
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Re: Trajectory of Danger: Becoming a Political Organization

Post by _Droopy »

moksha wrote:
What a terrible thing it would be to wake up one morning and find that
your Church has transitioned itself into a Political Action Committee based
on the principles of Cleon Skousen, Glenn Beck and Mr. John Birch.



1. What makes you think this is occurring, or could possibly occur?

2. What political beliefs common to the John Birch Society do you see as shared by the LDS Church and its members?

What are Glenn Beck's political views, in your understanding, and why do you oppose them?
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_Droopy
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Re: Trajectory of Danger: Becoming a Political Organization

Post by _Droopy »

Joseph wrote:Touchy, touchy, touchy.... CTR is mormnspeak for Choose the Republican. That was the joke when I was there and attending Stake High Council meetings.



After Bush and McCain, it would not surprise me to find out that the vast majority of LDS are rather gun shy, as I am, of the Republican party as a party.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: Trajectory of Danger: Becoming a Political Organization

Post by _Droopy »

I wasn't even trying to answer the question, I quoted you to grab your attention. And speaking of apostates of the highest order, that includes those who teach their own philosophy and claim it as LDS Doctrine; nothing worse than usurping the position of Prophet or even God in order to claim your own personal philosophy is LDS Doctrine. are sure you are not a closet apostate; and as I recall in a bishopric too - theres an apostate of the highest order, one who using his calling to promote his own philosophy as LDS Doctrine.


Here's the problem. Although the church claims and declares that it contains the fullness of the gospel, it does not have a monopoly on truth, and, indeed, has always taught precisely the opposite.

All truth is one; light cleaves unto light, intelligence to intelligence, and wisdom to wisdom, and so on. There is gospel truth scattered and diffused throughout the world among various peoples and the plethora of beliefs that exist among them, religious, metaphysical, philosophical, and political. Politics and the elements of political philosophy, being central to the human condition and key in determining the kind of society we will live in and the boundaries/conditions it will impose upon our individual potential and progression, must, by definition be, like all other systems of belief and philosophy, composed of beliefs, values, perspectives, and fundamental principles that, when compared and contrasted to the principles of the gospel (which is the frame of reference with respect to which all human systems of belief are inspected, scrutinized, and judged as to the truth they do or do not contain) are either found to be congenial, to one degree or another, or incompatible, all the way to the degree of being aggressively hostile.

The gospel then, is the frame of reference, or template predicated upon which all other truth claims, or assertions regarding various states of affairs in the world are analyzed as to their value and legitimacy. The gospel and its teachings are the means by which we take our bearings on all other claims, propositions, and statements asserting that some state of affairs is the case.

Why it should be thought odd then, that some political philosophies will be found to contain greater or lesser degrees of truth, and that some will be found to contain nary a single grain of truth, while other composite/hybrid forms may synthesize and expound a great deal - while yet remaining deeply imperfect (being human creations, after all), is itself a pertinent question.

Fears by the tiny minority of LDS who continue to cling to leftist beliefs that the substantial majority are clinging to conservative political beliefs is, I think, a displaced anxiety over, not so much that the church is somehow becoming, in some sense, an extension of the Republican party, but over their overt minority position within the church and LDS culture and the clear consensus leanings among most faithful LDS toward conservative/libertarian political philosophy and away from the Left. The real gnawing suspicion here is, I think, that the vast majority of faithful LDS lean toward conservative/libertarian politics for a very consistent, fundamental reason, and that that reason is intrinsic to the gospel itself, and not a quirk of sociocultural history.

The very fact that Harry Ried can make a statement such as "I am a Democrat because I am a Mormon" is interesting precisely because, if it is true, then the opposite statement cannot be true. Reid, years ago, stated in an indirect manner nothing at all different than what bc has claimed for years when he has asserted that one cannot be a good Mormon and a good Democrat where "good" indicates a conscious, knowledgeable acceptance of the Democratic party's core beliefs, values, and policies.

Given the sharp and volatile differences between the Left and the Right philosophically, if one is a Democrat because one is a Mormon (i.e., LDS doctrines and philosophy presuppose Democratic party political views), then one cannot be a Republican, conservative, or libertarian, and at the same time be a good Mormon, because conservative philosophy must presuppose incompatibility with Church teachings.

For some odd reason (which we could develop and discuss), Reid can get away with making such a statement, while Ezra Benson, Glen Beck et al, or bc, Loran, or other posters at the MADboards must carefully tip toe across the tulips of the fragile sensitivities of liberal/leftist posters and mods who are not willing to entertain the very same claim being made, by a conservative/libertarian poster, only in more direct language.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_moksha
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Re: Trajectory of Danger: Becoming a Political Organization

Post by _moksha »

Droopy wrote:What are Glenn Beck's political views, in your understanding, and why do you oppose them?


Nut job conspiracy theories and demonization of those with whom he disagrees. If the commies don't finish us off then the international cabal of bankers will.

Truthfully, I am uncertain whether Glenn Beck actually believes his own material or whether he uses it as a latter day Phineas T. Barnum who panders to an audience eager for conspiracy theories and political craziness.
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_bcspace
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Re: Trajectory of Danger: Becoming a Political Organization

Post by _bcspace »

Nut job conspiracy theories and demonization of those with whom he disagrees. If the commies don't finish us off then the international cabal of bankers will.


The OP said "principles", not interpretive anachronisms.

I think I stated the "radical" principles of the John Birch Society fairly well when I said "Against communism and for limited government, a Constitutional Republic, and personal freedom". This is why the left must always change the subject when someone answers their claims. It's just too tough to actually be against values one claims to fight for.

What are Glenn Beck's political views, in your understanding, and why do you oppose them?


You'll never get a straight answer to this (or any other) question. I don't think they even know who John Birch is until this very moment when they will scramble to Wikipedia to look him up.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
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