onandagus wrote:No one is saying Joseph Smith's "translation" via the GAEL was correct. It wasn't. The question at issue isn't whether he came up with a wrong translation, since the document was a forgery, but how he came up with it. Different modes of arriving at the wrongful translation, such as direct revelation and simple character matching, have different implications.
Don
Hi Don,
I think you have shown (albeit with only one character and with some 'work' required to substantiate the match) that Joseph did indeed attempt to translate the hoaxed Kinderhook Plates (I think most people had reached this opinion before your presentation) but that he didn't use revelation he used his own intellect - this is an assumption (correct me if I'm wrong) on your part based on the fact that these two singular characters 'match' and in the absence of anything documented saying that he used seer stones/urim & thummim.
If we say you are exactly on the money with this, then doesn't that then have implications for the Book of Abraham? You have 'proven' that Joseph was less than competant and gullable when it comes to translating things when he relied on his own abilities.
There is no evidence that the Book of Abraham was produced in a manner in any way different to that used on the Kinderhook Plates. And in terms of the artefacts available, it can be shown he achieved the same nonsensical result.
I realise that this isn't to do directly with your presentation but I would be interested in hearing your opinion on how you view the implications of your findings in relation to the Book of Abraham.
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)
Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.
onandagus wrote:No one is saying Joseph Smith's "translation" via the GAEL was correct. It wasn't. The question at issue isn't whether he came up with a wrong translation, since the document was a forgery, but how he came up with it. Different modes of arriving at the wrongful translation, such as direct revelation and simple character matching, have different implications.
Don
Don, for the record I applaud your work acknowledging historical fact. I may disagree with your conclusions, but much like Brant Gardner (I also respect his work) you aren't attempting to spin the facts.
Question for Wiki Wonka/Don - Are there plans to revise the FairMormon Kinderhook plates conclusion?
The best argument against Joseph's attempt to translate the Kinderhook plates is most likely that no one said anything about it at the time.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. 2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths
What I would like to know is if 'A Gentile' was there, when Smith 'translated a portion of them', at the same time that Clayton was. Does anyone have the entire statement? Does he give the same details that Clayton did? Unfortunately Uncle Dale's collection of the Herald does not cover that period. The last one for '43 that he has is January, then it jumps to '44. Can anyone post the entire article (Dan, or Don hopefully?) So it could be read in context? (Or the entire relevant portions of it)? Having followed this closely, I'm really (also) excited about Don's presentation, and the new take on it. Having compared the GAEL with the Kinderhook Character, I thought the same thing that Dan did, it's not quite a match, and how to explain the horizontal line with the two downward bars. Also, are the woodcuts entirely accurate? I would concede that Smith probably called the GAEL the Egyptian Alphabet, and that is prob. why they labeled it as such. But he might have also called it his 'lexicon', which he sent his brother to fetch in the diary account. I think it's some really great detective work on Don's part, and does give us a look into how things probably went down. As for putting it all together, still waiting on that video.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door; Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors. One focal point in a random world can change your direction: One step where events converge may alter your perception.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door; Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors. One focal point in a random world can change your direction: One step where events converge may alter your perception.
grindael wrote:Having compared the GAEL with the Kinderhook Character, I thought the same thing that Dan did, it's not quite a match, and how to explain the horizontal line with the two downward bars.
Are you saying the two characters are not an exact match?
Because here is what I asked Don earlier in the thread: 'A single character in the GAEL exactly matches a single character on the KP.
The translation Joseph made was simply expressing the meaning of that character as already established by GAEL.
Have I got that right?'
And here is Don's response: 'Jon,
Yes.
This will be sooo much clearer when the video is up.
Don'
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)
Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.
onandagus wrote: This would become a larger discussion involving all of Joseph Smith's revelatory and non-revelatory translations. It's certainly not something you can conclude from the Kinderhook plates incident alone, particularly since in that case he didn't use a revelatory method as he did with the Book of Mormon, etc.
Don
Don,
What a fascinating discussion and thanks for your willingness to participate in it. It seems Joseph Smith made pronouncements at other times that were similar to his translation of the KP in that they seemed spur of the moment also. Do you think his explanations of Zelph and or Adam-ondi-Ahman were exclusively secular in their origins?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
That's called a false dichotomy -- it is either a "complete demolition" or a "bomb."
Actually, some bombs have been known to cause complete demolition.
More to the point, though, I think Don has contributed substantially to the discussion of the Kinderhook Plates, and tangentially to opening doors on the GAEL.
Kudos to Don.
And double-kudos for sticking around and duking out his position here and elsewhere.
This is more than "somebody else" did . . .
All the Best!
--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
grindael wrote:Having compared the GAEL with the Kinderhook Character, I thought the same thing that Dan did, it's not quite a match, and how to explain the horizontal line with the two downward bars.
Are you saying the two characters are not an exact match?
Because here is what I asked Don earlier in the thread: 'A single character in the GAEL exactly matches a single character on the KP.
The translation Joseph made was simply expressing the meaning of that character as already established by GAEL.
Have I got that right?'
And here is Don's response: 'Jon,
Yes.
This will be sooo much clearer when the video is up.
Don'
I said they don't quite appear to be. But I haven't seen Don's presentation yet. The symbol on page 4 of the GAEL does not have the corresponding vertical and horizontal lines in it. But, I'm interested in seeing how Don addresses this.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door; Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors. One focal point in a random world can change your direction: One step where events converge may alter your perception.
jon wrote:It is perhaps worth noting, that where physical relics/artifacts exist Joseph has been shown to be flat out wrong. Every time.
This is absolutely key
When it comes to stuff like this, it's ironic that the less "evidence" there is, the easier it is to believe. If the Kinderhook plates had been lost, I suspect some apologists would still be defending them to this day.
If I were an apologist, every night when I say my prayers I would express thanks that the gold plates aren't around anymore.