Don Bradley's Kinderhook Bomb

[_thews]

Thanks for staying in this discussion for this long Don. I can tell you're getting frustrated, but I don't agree the intent of the critics is rooted in mocking your points, but rather they just don't agree with you.

When I acknowledged that the pre-conference talk had an element of hype, I also reiterated that I believe my argument does demolish the critical argument.

When you say "the" critical argument in the above, just exactly what do you feel the critical argument is? I believe there's more than one:

1) Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God, because he made a translation of a known fraud in the Kinderhook plates.
2) Joseph Smith's truth claims regarding his ability to translate ancient languages, to include the golden plates and the Egyptian papyrus, are demonstrably false.
3) The subject Joseph Smith claimed the Kinderhook plates contained regarding the descendant of Ham, proves his claim of having a revelatory "gift" was simply not true.

Good points, all. Also interesting is that Don has repeatedly failed to even attempt to answer my question: where did the English translation of the character on the GAEL come from? Don's whole theory, it seems to me, depends on the fact that Joseph Smith noticed the similarities between a character on the KP and a character on the GAEL and gave the translation of the KP character based on what the GAEL said the character meant. But he has steadfastly refused to address the question of where the translation of the character on the GAEL came from.

The derivation of the GAEL definition is simply irrelevant to the argument I've been trying to make and is a red herring tactic you've been using to avoid having to acknowledge the refutation of your precious Kinderhook plates argument.

I fail to see how connecting the dots of the one character into English is irrelevant. It is very relevant and should actually be the crux of your argument. Since we know the KP were a hoax, even if Joseph Smith thought he could translate them based on that one character, what are the odds that one character would tell a specific story of the descendant of Ham? What Joseph Smith didn't claim was the plates contained a recipe for baking a cake. How then, does one bridge the gap from a random translation of an unknown subject, to the very specific name of Ham?

by the way, I do acknowledge that George has said the critical argument was two-pronged, and he is correct. I believe a review of my posts in the last two weeks, as well as a few years ago, will show that I've generally acknowledged that there is what I consider a strong form of the critical argument from the KPs and a weak form. What I believe I have refuted, and have more than one critic here agreeing with me on, is the first, based on Joseph Smith supposedly making a revelatory translation from the KP, not the second, which just says that a prophet should not have initially taken the KPs' genuineness in good faith but should have been warned by God from the get-go that the KPs were fake.

I still fail to see how you've refuted the argument Joseph Smith didn't make a revelatory translation. To make that claim, you'd have to show how "Ham" was derived from the one character you claim is a match. If there is no connection, then a revelatory means by a prophet of God is the most logical conclusion. When one attempts to separate "prophet of God" and "man" as two separate roles, what's lost is the supposed time the man is a prophet of God. I see this as binary, as the man is either a prophet of God, or he is not. To substantiate this, you'd have to also claim that Joseph Smith didn't claim to communicate with God after the Kinderhook plates were shown to him.

Thanks

[_Socrates]

Don,

Do you similarly deny revelation played any part in the 'translation' of the Book of Mormon because of the Spaulding Theory, as you deny revelation played any part in the 'translation' of the Kinderhook Plates because of the Bradley Theory?

[Guest]

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[_Nightlion]

How many characters are on the kinderhook plates?

Here's an image of them:

One symbol on the GAEL? Sorry but there are lots of same symbols on the 'Caractors' of the Book of Mormon glyphs. Compare for yourselves. Here is a generic page of them and the Hoffman masterpiece.





No way Joseph Smith did not recognize them. He was making up some fun for the boys.

[_Nightlion]

What should we suppose Joseph was to do with such an obvious fraud. He could not well denounce the writing as bogus as it is the same writing as his own Book of Mormon glyphs. I guess they thought they could catch him either way. Deny that these are legitimate and face the ridicule of his own known script. Or let it go with a trifle. So he trifled. So what?

Interesting however is the fact that Kinderhook Plates were reportedly found in 1843 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthon_Transcriptand the first time the 'Caractors' were published was in The Prophet in December of 1844 after Joseph's death.
This would clue a conspiracy with someone 'in the know' who had access to the 'Caractors' paper and could copy them when making the fake plates.

Somebody ought to start diggin'

And don't nobody suggest that the 'Caractors' script was copied from off the Kinderhook Plates.

[_Socrates]

Mr. Nightlion, is your thesis that the KPs were made up by someone that had access to the Anthon 'caractors' and that Joseph Smith, Jr. immediately recognized them for the fraud that they were?

Who do you think in Joseph Smith, Jr.'s inner circle, with access to the Anthon caractors before their publication betrayed him by participating in the KPs fraud? Do you know of some historical records that support the notion that Joseph Smith, Jr. conducted an inquisition or rendered retribution to any whom he suspected in his inner circle of confidantes?

Why would Joseph Smith, Jr. have not thought that all the caractor matches (please specify which caractors appear on the KPs) comprised a bull's eye cluster, if anything leading Joseph Smith, Jr. to conclude that the KPs were thereby proven genuine ancient metal plate records? Wouldn't multiple caractor matches heighten Joseph Smith, Jr.'s interest and belief in the KPs' genuineness rather than make him skeptical, and more than just the one Bradley match?

If Joseph Smith, Jr. immediately recognized the KPs as a fraud, why did he tell Clayton that the KPs actually contained the history of a descendant of Ham, whose bones were found in the mound near Kinderhook when the KPs were found? Was Joseph Smith, Jr. known for giving false information about metal plates to his trusted scribes?

[_Equality]

What should we suppose Joseph was to do with such an obvious fraud.

I guess the argument here is that Joseph Smith would have known the characters on the Kinderhook plates were fraudulent because they were copied from the fraudulent Book of Mormon characters? Makes sense to me.

[_Nightlion]

What should we suppose Joseph was to do with such an obvious fraud.

I guess the argument here is that Joseph Smith would have known the characters on the Kinderhook plates were fraudulent because they were copied from the fraudulent Book of Mormon characters? Makes sense to me.

Once a thing is rightly understood it immediately invents a thousand ways and means to at once
misunderstand. Like putting stake in the ground and saying that here it is. Now anyone can deny that and say, no it is over here, or there, or anywhere but where it is.

[_Equality]

There shall, in that time, be rumors of things going astray, erm, and there shall be a great confusion as to where things really are, and nobody will really know where lieth those little things wi-- with the sort of raffia work base that has an attachment. At this time, a friend shall lose his friend's hammer and the young shall not know where lieth the things possessed by their fathers that their fathers put there only just the night before, about eight o'clock. Yea, it is written in the book of Cyril that, in that time, shall the third one...

[_Nightlion]

Mr. Nightlion, is your thesis that the KPs were made up by someone that had access to the Anthon 'caractors' and that Joseph Smith, Jr. immediately recognized them for the fraud that they were?

Who do you think in Joseph Smith, Jr.'s inner circle, with access to the Anthon caractors before their publication betrayed him by participating in the KPs fraud? Do you know of some historical records that support the notion that Joseph Smith, Jr. conducted an inquisition or rendered retribution to any whom he suspected in his inner circle of confidantes?

Why would Joseph Smith, Jr. have not thought that all the caractor matches (please specify which caractors appear on the KPs) comprised a bull's eye cluster, if anything leading Joseph Smith, Jr. to conclude that the KPs were thereby proven genuine ancient metal plate records? Wouldn't multiple caractor matches heighten Joseph Smith, Jr.'s interest and belief in the KPs' genuineness rather than make him skeptical, and more than just the one Bradley match?

If Joseph Smith, Jr. immediately recognized the KPs as a fraud, why did he tell Clayton that the KPs actually contained the history of a descendant of Ham, whose bones were found in the mound near Kinderhook when the KPs were found? Was Joseph Smith, Jr. known for giving false information about metal plates to his trusted scribes?

That is my thesis.

No retribution. I see him as resigned to his fate once he saw the die was caste.
I can speak to being betrayed. It changes everything. It can well account for how he trifled with the interpretation of the K-plates. To him these were a writing on the wall and the sign that the end was near for him.

Yes I think I do know WHO the Judas was. It will be another matter to prove any of it. The art of subterfuge is the highest of all the dark arts and getting away with it clean is its mastery. I think we are speaking of a Master Mahan here. For myself I am satisfied as to who it was. I see the evidence trailing this man and his gang of tares. He continued his art for another sixty years completely undetected and successful at the highest level of Mormon authority.

I should expect that if the writing on the K-plates excited Joseph Smith and he was bonded to them with familiar zeal, he would have taken them to heart and seriously studied them rather than dismiss them and tell them to seek out the learned ones about them. Rather, these would have been treasured as sacred and he would scarcely have allowed them to be put out of his hands. His actions bespeak my interpretation well.