The problem with Moroni's challenge

[Guest]

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[_NeoMorm]

I have to be honest NeoMorm this is one of the things that really baffles me. The LDS Church and Mopologists act as if they are so concerned about context and that those critical of their Church take things out of context. Yet here you have an example of a scripture that they have no problem taking out of context to serve their needs.

That would be because that's how Joseph Smith interpreted the scripture in James, or at least that is what is taught. When he wanted to know which church was true he figured God would answer based on this scripture. It could be that Joseph misinterpreted this scripture as meaning "Knowledge" instead of "Wisdom"

I recommend reading the whole of the Epistle of James it isn't long and you'll get a better understanding of what James means by "wisdom" and it is not the sure knowledge that Trump's reason and helps win arguments that it is commonly used in Mormonism for. Rather wisdom appears to mean in the context of the whole epistle asking God for the knowledge and ability to do good things in life, since James talks of two types earthly and heavenly wisdom.

Yes, I would have to agree with you here, the whole epistle is a lecture of wise sayings and such.

I guess they don't get their followers to do that for a number of reasons a few of which might be:

1) The Book of Mormon can easily be disproved without resorting to prayer.
2) They may consider asking God about something that is so easily refuted as the modern equivalent of "seeking signs"

I am not sure that is as axiomatic as you state here. For non-atheists there has to be a certain element of mystery for the same reason God doesn't just show up, trash some bad guys and say "hey, here I am!" The element of Faith. So if enough doubt can be cast on the disproof of the Book of Mormon, then the argument can be made that it can be neither proved nor disproved, so one has to fall back on faith.

3) They don't ask their members to pray about the Koran or Dianetics either.

These factions are not currently a great threat to them, so why bother.

[_Pollypinks]

Why do practicing Mormons have such a hard time admitting that people of other faiths consider their prayers answered, and also feel the spirit?

[_Themis]

Mormons cannot simply ignore other people's experiences but claim that theirs are "spiritual", especially since it is just as likely that yours are self generated considering that the descriptions of each are so close to each other.

LDS and others have a tendency to do just that. Part of the problem is that we don't want to really accept that maybe it is just self generated.

This makes the test completely inadequate since there is little to no difference in the way that a yes and no answer is received. A person could do the test, receive the answer that the Book of Mormon is not true and then live according to that as knowledge. The test fails because it is impossible to differentiate the answer received from a self generated answer.

The church present Moroni's promise as a yes or nothing response from God. Any positive expereince is encouraged to interpret as the Holy Ghost telling you that it is true. Getting nothing or a negative experience should be interpreted as you not meeting the criteria or that God is not ready to give you an answer yet, so keep it up, and if you have a positive expereince somewhere else that you think could be the Holy Ghost telling you it is true you should go with this as your answer. This really is a good way to set up a win win scenario.

What was this "spiritual experience" you had, care to describe it and how it is different from anything else self generated in your head?

I find most won't here thinking they may be casting their pearls before swine. I know you and I would not be swine since we would not mock their experiences, but some might. It's also a way to avoid describing something that really is common among people everywhere.

[_Themis]

Because atheism affords them the greatest opportunity for self-indulgence which is at the heart of every atheistic endeavor.

Although I know to many religious people who believe such crap, I would hope that you do not. This is really just a way to attack another group instead of listening to what they say and do.

[_Lost Mystic]

Since many do not believe the church a cult, then why do most exmormons become atheists, rather than choosing a more benign faith, say, Quakerism?

Because atheism affords them the greatest opportunity for self-indulgence which is at the heart of every atheistic endeavor.

I hope you are joking...

That is such an ignorant statement...

But regarding your trust in moroni's challenge, and that the HG will respond to individuals differently at different times, are you suggesting that they must filter potential HG confirmations through their own brain and reason?

Apparently Joseph Smith couldn't tell the difference either when he said God would get the Book of Mormon published by some Canadian press...and upon the quest's failure, he said some inspiration is of God, and some are of Satan, and some are of man's own mind (something like that).

So what good is the HG anyway if 1. You can't recognize the "promptings" for sure, 2. They are left up to your own brain's interpretation, or 3. It's impossible to actually confirm it's from the HG and not from yourself or Satan...

So where is the validity or reliability of the Moroni's promise due to the above mentioned problems?

[_Pollypinks]

I've never stated my spiritual experiences couldn't be self generated. Just as I respect those with atheistic views, I would expect the same kind of respect, but don't normally get it with ex-mormons. Very rarely does anyone express joy that I'm having a good day, and that I think maybe it's because of prayer. Nobody from an exmo site like this is going to say, "That's great!" I'll just hear that it's no way possible, and just in my head. It's doing reverse battle with cult indoctrination, that makes folks only head in one direction. If I have a buddhist friend who believes his life is progressing well because of karma, I'm going to say I'm glad for you. Not, you are making this up in your head. I'm not going to try to convince him that he's an idiot because he doesn't think like I do. My son is an atheist, and not once have I tried to badger him into thinking like I do, but he and his friends love to put me down, usually in jest, because I'm a believer. Where's the diversity and tolerance?

[_Lost Mystic]

That's not true Polly...

I'm happy when someone is happy. I have religious friends who talk about experiences with God. I don't argue with them! Scientific studies show some benefits to religious belief.

But this forum is a place for me to ask questions and discuss things that I wouldn't pose to my friends and family...

:)

[Guest]

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[_Quasimodo]

I've never stated my spiritual experiences couldn't be self generated. Just as I respect those with atheistic views, I would expect the same kind of respect, but don't normally get it with ex-Mormons. Very rarely does anyone express joy that I'm having a good day, and that I think maybe it's because of prayer. Nobody from an exmo site like this is going to say, "That's great!" I'll just hear that it's no way possible, and just in my head. It's doing reverse battle with cult indoctrination, that makes folks only head in one direction. If I have a buddhist friend who believes his life is progressing well because of karma, I'm going to say I'm glad for you. Not, you are making this up in your head. I'm not going to try to convince him that he's an idiot because he doesn't think like I do. My son is an atheist, and not once have I tried to badger him into thinking like I do, but he and his friends love to put me down, usually in jest, because I'm a believer. Where's the diversity and tolerance?

Hi Pollypinks,

I grew up in SLC as a non-Mormon. My experience throughout my youth was one of constant proselytizing by some of my schoolmates and their parents. A fairly constant suggesting that I join the "Church". That the beliefs of my parents were wrong. I once was told (at the age of ten) that I was "of the Devil" by one of my friend's mothers.

People can often be single minded in their philosophies. Not realizing how their comments can affect others. I think it might work both ways.