Corpsegrinder wrote:LOL! No, I’m not an undertaker, a butcher...or even a serial killer. The name comes from a dumb, low-budget 70’s horror flick.
Well, I like my idea about a serial killer butcher. It's much more dramatic! Do you remember what the secret password was which was used in one of the Marx Bro's movies??? It was necessary to use in order to gain entry to a club room...you know, where they had a wood door with a small wooden window that opened at which time you said the secret password before they let you in.... (warning, this is a test....the correct answer is worth 50 (!!) points).
And thank you for the detailed and heartfelt answer. But to be perfectly frank, you provided me with an answer to a question I did not ask. Specifically, you answered as if I had asked the following:
“Why do some people not get an answer from the Holy Ghost when they pray regarding the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon?”
But in reality, my question was as follows:
“How do you reconcile your beliefs with the fact that some Christians claim the Holy Ghost told them the Book of Mormon was not true?”
ARGHH - you glossed over my answer in your haste to give me the response you just did. Here is part of my answer, again:
It soon became very apparent that there was also more than one reason people receive (or think they are receiving) a different answer from the Holy Ghost.
However, I will happily give you the benefit of the doubt because, in truth, we all are guilty of glossing over some important words when we see familiarty in responses which drive us crazy. We are apt to then misread by not being thorough in reading a response.
I hope that you will find through all of my posts in all threads I'm responding to that I have not been trained to offer pat answers. Nor do I care to use them unless I fully agree with them; at which point I try to remember to add upon them to explain WHY I have used them. Rather I draw upon my real life experiences, thoughts, ponderings, etc. In fact you will likely discover that my thoughts very frequently get out of bounds from what most LDS people will venture to say.....not that I'm a renegade or a rebel (though I WAS the only sibling in my family who was born in the South).
There is also another aspect to consider about pat answers (since we are on the subject); and that is, some of them simply are Truth - we may use our own unique way of expressing them....but the message itself will turn out to be the same. If it happens to resemble a pat answer, that is because Truth is Truth. So, if the pat answer is Truth, well, you can see that there is no way of getting around that someone's answer is going to look like that pat answer. That is not a tactic; that is simply an expression of Truth.
Perhaps what is necessary at this point, is for me to expound on the paragraph I repeated above which came from my last post to you. It actually encompasses elements of the argument you thought I was giving as a typical "tactic". To be clear, therefore, I am going to use the argument you just used against me, and now use it against you.
Once more, here is what I said:
It soon became very apparent that there was also more than one reason people receive (or think they are receiving) a different answer from the Holy Ghost.
I have been involved in some some hair-raising arguments over this issue with various die-hard true blue anti-LDS individuals who HAVE been trained through actually taking classes on how to respond to an LDS person on a myriad of topics and sub-topics. Unfortunately two of those individuals are my younger brother and his wife who I know for a fact were trained at their church (Calvary Chapel) to fight against me. So what I am sharing did not come from reading books or articles prepared by LDS Apologetic groups and/or scholars. What I relate in my posts comes from first hand experience. In fact I have a big problem with some of the sites that offer LDS apologetic articles about specific issues because I think they are often missing the boat, even though they can be useful in directing people to source material which they can then study themselves.
What I have discovered is, that when pressed to relate to me exactly what they did or what they said when "asking God" about the Book of Mormon, is that they have asked questions which are far removed from a simple, truth seeking answer. My experiences with the Holy Ghost have taught me that I need to be pretty specific and focused on the questions I ask in order for the Holy Ghost to be able to respond. I think He does this on purpose - if our questions are too broad, not well thought out, or not truly sincere, then it is impossible for Him to give us an answer we will be able to understand correctly for the basic reason that He does not hold full-on conversations with us. For instance, He is not going to answer a multiple choice question, because then we're not going to know which choice He was giving a nod to, or a don't go there answer to. Then we also can't forget that if God doesn't think we are prepared or ready, He simply isn't going to give the Holy Ghost the go ahead to reveal something to us. But we may desire an answer so badly that we can confuse our desire as being an answer. It takes time and experience to develop the ability to discern the Holy Ghost.
In retrospect I think I should have started keeping copies of the various answers they gave me, as they would prove to be very useful at this point in order to demonstrate the types of questions they DID ask the Holy Ghost. Consequently it is not surprising to me that they received a "no" answer, or perhaps even received no answer at all; or, that they perceived they received a "no" answer. Sometimes they would finally admit that they never really did ask at all because: a) they were afraid to (and this response could have a thread dedicated to it); b) they felt an evil presence (another interesting response which I feel was born of their preconceptions); c) they didn't need to pray because it (the Book of Mormon) is so obviously false and does not agree with Biblical doctrine (huh???); d) they are perfectly happy in taking someone else's word for it whose opinions and scholarly work they admire and trust;, etc. This, of course, indicates that they actually lied about receiving a "no" answer. But they are so dedicated to believing the preconceptions, they are able to justify and wave away the fact that they lied about it.
This is a common tactic which I’m familiar with because I, as a missionary, was instructed to do much the same thing. I.e., I was told not to answer difficult questions; rather, I was told to answer the question that should have been asked. Here’s a link to a video of Robert Millet from BYU saying, in effect, the same thing:
http://newnewsnet.BYU.edu/flv/overcomingobjections.html
I am very familiar with the above as it is a standard anti-LDS tactic used which I have run into over and over again.
Now, I do believe that there is truth in the principle and concept that an investigator, and more often, a trained anti-LDS individual a missionary is likely to run into, will ask questions which are beyond the scope of ideas and concepts which are needed first in order to attempt to create a base-line foundation upon which they can then build up to the questions those individuals are asking up front. But this is a normal method of conversing in most subject matters. If you were to deny this, then I would become concerned with YOUR credibility in future discussions with you.
Here is why. In any subject being discussed there is always groundwork that needs to be laid. A very good example is what I am experiencing right here and now on this Board, as I just started a couple of days ago to post here. So I don't know anyone's story yet; I don't know where they are coming from, or what their experiences have been which brought them here. Until I can establish that information, I can't have a very effective conversation with them. This concept is easily applicable to formal learning (school, college, etc.). To learn trig you have to take basic math classes first. To learn a foreign language, you need to get basic sentence structure, learn their vowels and consonants, etc. You can't plunge into reading their treasured novels written in the language you are trying to learn and expect to be able to understand them. And so forth.....
Also, you cannot escape the reality that the trained anti-LDS individual is going to ask questions designed to set-up and stump the average missionary who has little or no experience yet with dealing with this type of situation. In these cases, I view the missionary as the foot soldier, and the trained anti-LDS as the mounted cavalry.
Do you honestly think the bait-and-switch tactic enhances the Church’s credibility?
The bait-and-switch tactic might have worked in the era before the internet--when Robert Millet was growing up--but it certainly won’t work in an age when the Church can no longer hide its embarrassing secrets.
If anything it will simply undermine the Church’s credibility even more.
Inasmuch as I have already addressed these comments earlier in this post, I would like to make additional comments of my own.
I do not know what has soured your view of the Church (if, indeed, you are), or if you are still active or not; or, if you are active, if this a true concern you sincerely are having an issue with. What I will offer is this. I searched many years to find a church I was comfortable with. All my life I have been prayerful and I had received inspiration from the Holy Ghost, so I was very familiar with Him and what experiencing Him felt like. I cannot remember a time in my life when I did not know who Jesus was or a time when I did not sincerely love my Father in Heaven or my Savior, Jesus Christ. When I discovered the Church, and realized that they taught an interpretation of the Bible which was the same interpretation I held to (which, by the way, is why I had been searching for another church. I had been raised Lutheran and just did not agree with many of their basic interpretations), I decided to listen to the discussions. Some of their comments seemed out right outlandish and I actually laughed when I first heard the story about Joseph Smith. I was going to send them away. At that moment I stopped hearing the words they were speaking. In my mind I stepped back from the situation and saw sitting before me, two young men, clean cut, earnest and sincere in their love for God, who had the guts to do something I had never seen before. They were volunteering to serve God the best way they knew how to; and were sacrificing two years of their lives to serve Him (and at a prime dating time in their lives to boot!). That was a bit of a "wow" realization for me which impressed me enough to offer a brief prayer of "God, please be with me" which I muttered silently. I decided to allow them to continue their discussions.
Everybody's conversion story is different and unique for them. I was very blessed in that when I had finished reading the Book of Mormon, prepared myself by fasting, and finally kneeling to ask God if the Book of Mormon was of Him, I had a very profound and awesome experiencing of the Holy Ghost which took away all doubt and has stuck with me to this day. This was some 37 years ago. I am very aware of the fallibility of man; so I am not troubled by their weaknesses. I do not expect perfection from anybody, including myself, including Church Leaders, including Prophets. My focus is on Father and Jesus and my personal relationship with them; which is facilitated and continues to grow and progress with the guidance of the Holy Ghost.
Enough for now!!!
Love,
jo