jo1952 wrote:Hi Sheryl!
For clarification, Satan is an archangel; does this help explain why he has so much power here on the earth?
Shabbat Shalom Jo!
A greater understanding of the ‘subjects’ in scripture can be had if we look to the divine principle behind the subject, the archetype, which then gives us a whole new layer of understanding of scripture!
For example, Israel is not simply the people that made up this nation, but representing a divine principal, an archetype of called out ones, or those who have struggled with God and prevailed – which is the actually meaning of the Hebrew word Israel. Thus Jacob was Israel and so was this nation made up of his descendents. And so are all called out ones, chosen for God's purposes. When we study Judaism at a deeper or mystical level, we discover that there is a whole level of teachings, revealing that the souls who incarnated as characters enacting or unveiling the history of Abraham’s descendents came into flesh just for that purpose, to play out the divine principles in the physical that would lead to the incarnation of the divine principal, or archetype, Messiah.
And so what is known as Satan is a divine principle – energies and beings that do not work in harmony with God’s Will but instead create struggle and tension - that yes is played out at all levels including the level of Archangel (there are Satanic emanations of all Archangels which is called the dark side of the Tree of Life). Now we teach that Satan is a 'secret force or mission of God’, meant to bring tension and struggle into creation. For without evil how could we long and desire for the good with enough energy to work to invoke it?
This becomes evident in Jesus calling his disciples ‘Satan’ at times, when they were manifesting disharmony with God’s Plan, and in ‘Satan’ being among the beni elohim or sons of God in the beginning of Job.
What I believe is that scripture, for the most part, is written in a language at its most simplest. It is truth which its authors have been inspired to write - and most prophets did so in a manner meant to be understood at a simpler level until an individual gains spiritual insight and is able to begin to see the multitudes of layers to be understood. Thus God obliges us with what we can understand - doing so at an easier and more plain way for us to relate to. If we continue to seek after God, He will continue to oblige. If we do not seek after Him, He still obliges us; and we are then not able to comprehend scripture at all. As you have said in so many words, it is up to us.
Indeed, dear sister. It is taught in many traditions that the Old Testament prophets were limited in their spiritual maturity, or vision, and are hence for the most part called lesser prophets. The greatest prophetic visions of the Bible being the visions of Daniel and of Apostle John in Revelation. God can only reveal what we are able to receive at the time. Jesus did though ground a revelation of God which most were and continue to be unable to receive. Thus it is only the few, as he declared, who are able to find the path and enter into the Kingdom.
Very interesting; and it makes sense up to the point where I still make the distinction that Jesus is literally and spiritually the Son of God within the definition as is understood wherein they are completely separate Beings.
I do not disagree at all, if you mean by literally, physically, and spiritually, extending out into the spiritual realms! A point of difference might be what we consider the Son of God to be. I know that Mormon understanding of Son of God is in some ways a bit more like mine, in that there is nothing that Jesus did not manifest that we too will not manifest. However, I do not limit the Son of God to the 3rd Heaven, but see him as Paul did, that in and through and by all that is
is. As Paul says, I say that Christ is in all, and is all, and that all is in Christ. So whatever our understanding of the Son of God, if we are in accordance with Paul, it would have to be something that can contain all things and be contained by all things, yes?
And so instead of visualizing the Son of God as a being with a beginning and an end that stands in the third heaven, I see him as the third heaven, and all heavens, so that the Son of God not only dwells in all dwelling places but
is all dwelling places.
I thus also see this both literally and spiritually, so that while the soul or consciousness that incarnated into our world was Jesus, it was simultaneously the world,
the soul or Christ coming into itself to save parts of itself. (this is a hint that I was pointing to in my admonishment to Frank) John 1.
I do see the difference. However, as I just said, what this ultimately looks like to me is that Jesus has emanated from the Father as an individual, spiritual Being. As such, and inasmuch as His desire was to completely do only the will of Father, Father gave Jesus the power and authority to then accomplish what He has in the manner you have described.
Paul gives a whole dialog on Spirit begetting Spirit, not flesh - that only flesh can beget flesh, in an attempt to bring some clarity into what this ultimately looks like. Since Jesus is the begotten of the Father, everything that the Father is Jesus is also. Meaning that if the Father is realms and realms of potential and actualization so is Jesus. An infinite being will not beget a finite being. And so the finite being that was the man Jesus was begotten by Mary and Joseph, placed within that though was a finger, a touchdown of an infinite being begotten by the infinite Father, as though God reached from the infinite and touched down in time and space. Indeed a miracle, one that requires a meeting of flesh and Spirit in a way never before occurring in this world.
I know that you have trouble believing that Joseph Smith was a prophet. As you know, I do believe he is a prophet. I also believe that the Book of Mormon is indeed an authentic second Testimony of Christ which was written by the peoples God led to the Americas; and that the Book of Mormon is a partial translation of their records which God inspired Joseph to bring forth. Now, in responding to your response of not knowing what Joseph saw, I believe that it is quite possible that when Joseph began receiving visions, that he did not understand them either. Just like us, as we progress in our understanding, he did likewise; though he had the advantage of being taught and administered to in his teachings by Angels of the Lord. In fact, when we look back at our own experiences with the Holy Ghost, we will perceive them differently today because our understanding has been added upon; thus we will expound on our experiences when we relate them today. It is also likely, as with many of the other teachings taught in the New Testament, that he learned more than he was allowed to reveal. As such the innate use of the words/language he used were done in the same manner as all previous scripture (in particular, the Bible) was revealed to mankind.
As I have shared, I believe that there is good work occurring in this world through the purification and healing work of the members of the LDS Church, and so whatever Joseph Smith experienced, it is being used for good. My understanding of who and what Joseph Smith was and experienced comes from my own experiencing, in having similar visions as he described, and in experiencing the Light Presence and Power of true Apostles. It is not a difficulty to believe, it just is. It is a knowing. This is what I know. This is what I know of Joseph Smith.
I would offer to anyone having visions or visitations by angels, do not take them at their face value, but seek purification and guidance. In other words, anytime a being tells you that you are something or that you have to do something, always look for confirmation in the physical, meaning that if God has chosen you, he will send you to or send to you one who was chosen before, to initiation you and to guide you into right understanding. In this way one stays connected to the remnant and will not be led astray by lesser spiritual entities.
You made me smile, as we can all picture individuals carrying signs on corners warning us that the end is near; and they are very sincere in their belief. I believe that as individuals, when we have experienced the Holy Ghost, we do react in humility. I would offer though, that the ancient Apostles could not keep the Good News to themselves, and went forth sharing what they knew. Likewise, Moses, who had a very distinctive responsibility, was not silently waiting; but went forth and did what God commanded him to do. Anyway, as I further study the works and writings and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, I continue to receive the witness of the Holy Ghost confirming his calling and accomplishments. I believe that he was instructed to grow a new church in order to teach the Gospel correctly, etc., because that meets the way or method mankind identifies with in the flesh. Unfortunately, man also gives way too much weight to an institution, as it is their personal relationship with God which progresses them.
Indeed the desire to give and the desire to receive are ingrained in us, thus it is through human desire that God works in this world. Our desire to receive though must be purified from ‘Satan’ or that which seeks to work in disharmony - desire for self alone, hence we will be led to the wilderness when we have received, to first be purified, before we become engaged in sacred receiving and giving, all for the Kingdom of Heaven!
I do not agree, however, with the interpretations of most members who think that the LDS Church is the only "way" or "path". No church institution can save a single person. Nonetheless, I do believe that the ordinances being currently performed by the Church are necessary; but they are merely the mechanical method of an individual to be able to enter a promise/contract with God. In other words, the LDS Church is a vehicle. Once the Millenium is ended, I believe the LDS Church will be dissolved, as will any other vehicles (religious institutions or other world "religions").
There is a necessity for a connection with others in our journey, as mentioned above, because this world is very dark and hostile, as are the lower heavens, and so we must remain connected with true community, no matter what level we are at. If our community does not feel right, though, we need to leave, to exit, because the Holy Spirit is calling us, preparing us, for greater community, for more purity, more sacred receiving and giving.
Also, I believe that since it is belief in and acceptance of Christ (which can take place in our physical body, or after mortal death), that salvation is much more easily attained than most think. However, our spiritual journey is eternal. It began before we got here, continues while we are in the flesh, and will continue after we leave the earth. Whatever spiritual understanding we obtain in the flesh is "bonus" understanding, which allows us to be that much more joyful with whatever else we have revealed to us while we are here. Thus, the quest for Exaltation will continue wherever we are until we have achieved it; even then we will continue in the eternities. Once we reach true spiritual awakening, we thirst for more and more...and if this is happening in the flesh, our quest can lead us to unexpected sources only because we were previously blind to them; yet happily we seek as our joy increases unbounded except by our own self-inflicted limitations.
Indeed, we are to follow our thirst, allowing God to purify it so that we might hunger and thirst for righteousness ( which is God’s Giving).
Sheryl, you ALWAYS help!!! I love you!!
Shalom,,
jo
May all beings hunger and thirst for the Kingdom of Heaven and its righteousness! Amen.
Sheryl