Spirituality or just emotion...?

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_sheryl
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Re: Spirituality or just emotion...?

Post by _sheryl »

jo1952 wrote:Hi Sheryl!

Thus words we find in scripture such as "purging" and "healing". This also suggests that "sin" is not always the out-and-out disobedience to specific commandments which many think it is; but also just not being in complete alignment with God's will. As you have suggested, it is "missing the mark" which prevents our ability to be in alignment. I am beginning to see this in ways and layers I never saw it before.


Hi Jo!

Indeed! And actually it is rather simple.

When man was or is ruled by his bestial nature - always seeking for self alone - he needs a law to tell him what to do and what not to do, so that creation can endure and even move forward. And so this is how God reveals himself, or how the bestial humanity perceives God as he reveals himself - just as the pagans perceived the lesser gods: like a strict daddy that we must work to please. This is only the bestial nature's perception of God, this is not how God is, but according to the bestial nature we need God to forgive us for all the things we do that he does not like. And what he does not like is sin, or error, or just plain being and doing wrong.

With the coming of the Messiah it marked the time that humanity was ready to begin falling willingly under the embrace of love, now no longer needing a law to tell them what is good and what is not good, but having the law written on their hearts, a higher nature that loves guiding them now, no longer guided by their bestial nature. And this higher nature can perceive and know God a bit more clearly, seeing that God is all giving, all loving, the problem with missing the mark is purely on our side.

A very beautiful and simple way of putting things is that on the first day of creation, there was light, but then God divided the light into light and darkness. This Light of the first day can be called Pure Divine Desire. This division that occurred was a dividing of the Pure Desire to Give from the Pure Desire to Receive - necessary for creation to unfold. (This is the same division that occurred at another level, described as Eve being taken or divided from Adam.)

Darkness or the Desire to Receive was further separated from Light or the Desire to Give in the subsequent days, the Desire to Receive in being separated from Her Beloved Desire to Give began to seek what some call false light, moving away from the true Light. This once Pure Desire eventually becoming distorted in its delusion of separation into a desire for self alone. This distortion necessary though for creation to unfold. And so darkness, as it moves away from the light, becomes evil in following its nature, but now in a delusion of separation, and begins to seek for self, even self alone.

The outer darkness being where desire is most distorted, the desire to receive for self alone, even at the harm of others.

The Pure Desire for Giving goes after its beloved, seeking its beloved to be re-united, the Messiah (the Pure Desire to Give) seeking its Bride (the Pure Desire to Receive).

And so missing the mark or sin is desiring for self alone. Purification or healing is the purifying of our desires as we find the Truth, seeing how what we desire takes us away from our beloved, not back in union. In what is called a fallen state, our desires are scattered all over the place - we wanting this and that and this, all for self alone. Purification comes with the revealing in the Light of our Messiah, the true nature of all this stuff that we desire - temporary relationships and objects made of dust. Our scattered desire being integrated into One Desire - Loving (desiring) God with all our heart, mind, soul, and body.

And in New Jerusalem, we are told that there is no longer day and night, the Light of the first day of creation is reunited, Pure Desire to Give (the Bridegroom) and Pure Desire to Receive (the purified Bride) re-uniting as One Pure Desire.

My gosh, since EVERYTHING is a pattern, why wouldn't we each as individuals need to be crucified in order for our "self" to be COMPLETELY in alignment with Father's will? What a simple concept! Yet, what a hard road to traverse to get to the core of its simplicity. Whoa!! So even Prophets, use simpler words to describe the ultimate meaning of what they want to share. If a Prophet were to say that we all need to be crucified, instead of using the words they are inspired to use to help us get started, we would most likely never listen to what they were trying to share.



Yes! Crucifying our passions and desires (Galatians 5:24)is the purifying of our desires, through righteousness. Now what is curious about righteousness is that it means giving. Ha! So that God's righteousness is his Giving as the Perfect Giver. Now we can see how our giving or righteousness is not the same as that of the Perfect Giver, unless our desire to receive has been purified, for any giving that we would do otherwise would be tainted with a desire to receive for self alone.

When we have embodied Perfect Giving, or God's righteousness - giving for the benefit of all, then we will have purified our desire to receive, becoming the spotless Bride. Loving (desiring for) others as our self, no longer desiring for self alone.

Can you now see what the greatest commandments are actually telling us?!??!

Perhaps you can also see how Christ purified his desires on the cross, as he gave up his very life as the Perfect Giver. We do not have to die on the cross, because Jesus opened the Way of Grace, for our own purification without the suffering that he endured. Although at times it feels like hanging on a cross would be a lot easier! ;)

Well, I didn't get that until just now.....and how many times have I read it? I can't even count the number......sigh....but I got it NOW!!!! And, may I say, WOW???!!!!! I mean I knew that we all have the light of Christ within us; I knew He was the Creator; etc., but I hadn't seen this aspect where this distinction should also be a part of my understanding.


Yes, scripture is quite clear. It is only that we are blinded to its clear meaning by cultural and religious collective ignorance.


Oh my gosh, Sheryl!!!!!! And here my own understanding has just experienced a major unfolding while I am reading your gifted ability to use words.

This is so interesting; and I agree. I think there is a misunderstanding about ancient mankind. Many people think they were not very intelligent. However, I think they may have actually been more intelligent if for no other reason than they did not have the benefit of the cumulative and naturally advancing knowledge being passed down to them from generation to generation that we have today. Yet they survived just fine. Ignorance should never be confused with intelligence.


There were some very intelligent and holy beings born among humanity in ancient times, but humanity was still quite bestial until about 2000 years ago, when we could begin no longer killing one another like beasts. I would say that bestial humanity was not able to connect with the greater inner intelligence that existed within them, as it does in us.


So far, during the history of mankind, I cannot see where more than just a few at a time would be able to understand this. If it HAS been made manifest in large numbers, their records do not appear to be available to the general public. This seems appropriate, though, as testified by mankind's history. For Biblical evidence of this, I would point to how the Apostles wrote letters to various groups of church members and explain to them that they were not yet ready for more.


Jesus said only a few would be able to find the truth and enter in. A few. I don't think he was lying! Indeed. And the letters were clear, that there was and is so much more than the simple gospel being taught at most churches. A gospel that is not good news at all!

Yes, and quite telling and also beautiful at the same time.

Shalom, my friend.

jo


Shalom dear friend!

Sheryl
_Drifting
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Re: Spirituality or just emotion...?

Post by _Drifting »

jo1952 wrote:
Drifting wrote:Jo,

During General Conference and in the Ensign we hear and read stories of the Holy Ghost intervening in dramatic circumstances to save lives or prevent serious injury. He does so via spiritual promptings.

Do you believe this teaching?


Hi Drifting,

Yes, I absolutely believe this teaching, as I have personally experienced it on at least a few different occasions. Now, this one really has the potential to confuse you, as it is not under circumstances that some would think are required in order for an intervention to take place. There has also been some question in my mind as to whether it was actually the Holy Ghost - I believe it may have been another Heavenly Messenger because words were spoken. Regardless, however, the intervention did, in fact, take place. Here is what happened:

During a period of inactivity in the Church (which to my mind, adds a layer of ponderable significance to the event), I had agreed to take time off of work so that I could help with the driving for a trip my parents were taking to my mother's 50th high school reunion. By this time, neither my father or my mother were able to drive the long hours they once were able to. She was concerned about this and asked if I would come along to assist in the driving--if fact, she wouldn't rest until I agreed to go (hmmmm). It was a five week trip because they wanted to see many of the sights America has to offer. We were traveling from California to New Jersey where many of father's relatives lived - though the reunion itself was in West Virginia - and back. It was quite the road trip - and I had left my own daughter and husband behind in order to accommodate my parents.

By the time of our return portion of the trip, our routine had evolved to the point where my mother was not doing any of the driving. She sat in the back seat and would read, map out our next sight-seeing location, or sleep. We would leave our hotel by 5:30am with my dad driving for about two hours, stop for breakfast, and he would take over driving again for another two or so hours during which time I would use a pillow against the passenger seat window and take a nap. When we stopped, I would take over the driving for the rest of the day.

One morning, after eating breakfast, I quickly fell to sleep. Suddenly, I heard a voice say very clearly to me, "Jo, your father is asleep." I quickly glanced to my left, and sure enough, my father's eyes were closed with his head tilted down as we traveled 65 mph down the highway. I immediately shook him awake and demanded he pull over. He was insisting that now that he was awake, he would be find. But I wouldn't have it. As he took the next exit in order to find a safe place to stop, I was about to thank my mother for waking me up. However, at the very same time, she spoke up. Her comment? "Why are we stopping?" Where I had just assumed she was the one who had said, "Jo, your father is asleep", she also was sleeping. As it turns out, I am the only one who heard the voice.

Love,

jo


Jo,

Thank you for sharing that story.
I have absolutely no wish to disparage your remarks or question the validity of your experience so please do not think that is what I am trying to do when I ask my next question.

Recently there has been a news story about a nine year old Mormon girl who was sexually abused by her Primary Teacher during lesson time.
If the Holy Ghost or other Heavenly messenger has the power to intervene physically in this world to provide protection, the type articulated in your experience, why did this girl get abused? Why, at some point in the process of the Bishop appointing the teacher (male) and the subsequent abuse, was someone not prompted to act to protect this girl?
Your experience is not uncommon within Mormonism. But these types of experience leave us with the only possible conclusion that the Holy Ghost etc picks and chooses who to protect and who to allow to suffer.

What's your view?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_sheryl
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Re: Spirituality or just emotion...?

Post by _sheryl »

Drifting wrote:
Jo,

Thank you for sharing that story.
I have absolutely no wish to disparage your remarks or question the validity of your experience so please do not think that is what I am trying to do when I ask my next question.

Recently there has been a news story about a nine year old Mormon girl who was sexually abused by her Primary Teacher during lesson time.
If the Holy Ghost or other Heavenly messenger has the power to intervene physically in this world to provide protection, the type articulated in your experience, why did this girl get abused? Why, at some point in the process of the Bishop appointing the teacher (male) and the subsequent abuse, was someone not prompted to act to protect this girl?
Your experience is not uncommon within Mormonism. But these types of experience leave us with the only possible conclusion that the Holy Ghost etc picks and chooses who to protect and who to allow to suffer.

What's your view?


Hello Drifting,

I hope you don't mind if I answer this, even though you addressed it to Jo.

We are surrounded by spiritual beings - good, bad and admixture, the good beings doing the work of the Holy Spirit. There really is no 'empty space' within matter as physics describes. And these spiritual beings are constantly talking to us, trying to influence us. Most of humanity is influenced by them without their awareness. They do not realize that these beings have influenced their feelings and their thoughts.

No doubt the Primary Teacher working evil was influenced by evil beings. And likewise no doubt there were many good or admixture beings trying to get the attention of any one near to protect the little girl. The reality of the situation is that most of humanity is more sensitive to bad presences than good - we easily accepting a negative thought or action or feeling as our own, and embracing it!

And how many times have we had a thought enter our mind to do something, to call someone, to take a different road home, to go check in classroom at church, but then we rationalize it away, thinking the thought originated with ourselves, and say back at it, ah no I better head out to my car or I will be late for dinner, or I don't feel like calling them now I will later, etc.

Remember Jo did not automatically assume a spiritual voice had spoken to her. Most of us would do the same and look for some other explanation, or just ignore it. These voices are whispers and so most cannot discern that something outside of them has spoken, and most who can usually ignore what they hear! Doubting that they really heard something.

Why there is bad in this world, why this child was abused, as are many children, is another topic!

Shalom!
Sheryl
_jo1952
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Re: Spirituality or just emotion...?

Post by _jo1952 »

Drifting wrote:Jo,

Thank you for sharing that story.
I have absolutely no wish to disparage your remarks or question the validity of your experience so please do not think that is what I am trying to do when I ask my next question.

Recently there has been a news story about a nine year old Mormon girl who was sexually abused by her Primary Teacher during lesson time.
If the Holy Ghost or other Heavenly messenger has the power to intervene physically in this world to provide protection, the type articulated in your experience, why did this girl get abused? Why, at some point in the process of the Bishop appointing the teacher (male) and the subsequent abuse, was someone not prompted to act to protect this girl?
Your experience is not uncommon within Mormonism. But these types of experience leave us with the only possible conclusion that the Holy Ghost etc picks and chooses who to protect and who to allow to suffer.

What's your view?


Hi Drifting,

I truly enjoy our discussions!!

My first thought is that this type of experiencing happens outside of the LDS Church as well. God is mindful of every single one of us. The reason I thought it was ponderable is for the very reason it happened during a long period of inactivity. Thus, the Holy Ghost and other good Heavenly Messengers are constantly watching over us, even when we have made choices which distance us from Father. The thing is, we may distance ourself; but God is always there. The actual distancing is a perception in our minds.

I was very upset to learn of the sexual abuse endured in the above story. I also realized instantly that there would be many, many individuals who would not be able to understand how "God" or the Holy Ghost could allow this to happen. So, I am very happy to share my thoughts with you.

The first difference is that in my story, we will never know how many lives were saved because I was told out loud (as perceived by me) that my father was sleeping. An accident caused by my father being asleep at the wheel (not a personal choice, as he was not aware that he had fallen asleep) had the potential of hurting or killing not only us, but also people driving in the same direction as us, as well as people driving in the opposite direction. All I can offer about this is that it was not the appointed time that any of us leave the earth. More importantly, through this type of intervention, God managed to do so without taking anyone's free agency away from them.

I think that free agency is at the foundation of all that happened with that young girl. If God were to remove our free agency, then nothing inappropriate or bad would have taken place. But God will not take away a wrong doer's choice; neither will He take away a good doer's choice. So it is an error to wonder why the Holy Ghost didn't step in to help this girl. Because mankind HAS free agency, both good and bad choices are made; this is where the learning takes place. It is not uncommon for the choices of others to remove our own free agency. It is not uncommon for us to realize that our own actions may be removing free agency from others. Likewise, our choices can allow others to maintain their free agency.

Mankind has thus set up their own rules for dealing with wrong doers when they do something that hurts or harms another. The actions and choices of the Primary Teacher will be dealt with in the manner which has been set up by man. The Primary Teacher is also going to be faced with God's spiritual system of purging and cleansing. Therefore, he will be punished by man while on the earth; and he will also pay the last farthing spiritually for his actions.

Any harm suffered by the girl will ultimately be a learning experience for her. The range of her learning can be narrow and focused only on the world's standards; or, it can become much broader with spiritual eyes. Neither way will be easy. Bad things happen to good people and to bad people all of the time. Good things happen to both good and bad people all of the time. The thing that changes our perception about these things is our spiritual growth and understanding. If we never experience spiritual growth and understanding, we will only see things from the world's perspective; and God will be blamed.

Love,

jo
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Re: Spirituality or just emotion...?

Post by _Drifting »

jo1952 wrote:The first difference is that in my story, we will never know how many lives were saved because I was told out loud (as perceived by me) that my father was sleeping. An accident caused by my father being asleep at the wheel (not a personal choice, as he was not aware that he had fallen asleep) had the potential of hurting or killing not only us, but also people driving in the same direction as us, as well as people driving in the opposite direction. All I can offer about this is that it was not the appointed time that any of us leave the earth. More importantly, through this type of intervention, God managed to do so without taking anyone's free agency away from them.


I think I disagree with your view that your father falling asleep at the wheel was not a personal choice - he chose to drive whilst tired, thereby putting you all at risk. Gods intervention specifically prevented a consequence of free agency.

I think that free agency is at the foundation of all that happened with that young girl. If God were to remove our free agency, then nothing inappropriate or bad would have taken place. But God will not take away a wrong doer's choice; neither will He take away a good doer's choice. So it is an error to wonder why the Holy Ghost didn't step in to help this girl. Because mankind HAS free agency, both good and bad choices are made; this is where the learning takes place. It is not uncommon for the choices of others to remove our own free agency. It is not uncommon for us to realize that our own actions may be removing free agency from others. Likewise, our choices can allow others to maintain their free agency.


If God allowed this consequence of free agency to happen to this girl, why did He intervene to not allow a consequence of your Fathers decision to drive whilst tired?

Any harm suffered by the girl will ultimately be a learning experience for her.


Why did God take away the learning experience of your family being harmed?

You can see where I am coming from I hope.
The two experiences are the same - in both, innocent parties could have been harmed as a direct consequence of the actions of another. He chose to intervene to protect you, but didn't make the same decision to protect the nine year old girl.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_jo1952
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Re: Spirituality or just emotion...?

Post by _jo1952 »

Drifting wrote:I think I disagree with your view that your father falling asleep at the wheel was not a personal choice - he chose to drive whilst tired, thereby putting you all at risk. Gods intervention specifically prevented a consequence of free agency.


Hi Drifting,

It's okay to disagree with me. I would offer, however, that as we get older, the understanding of our own bodies evolves. I know that when I was younger, I could drive for 12 hours after having put in 8 hours at work. When I became fatigued, I was well aware that I was fatigued, and would pull over. I have seen changes in myself, though, as I have aged. I don't have to feel fatigued, or tired, or worn out. Suddenly, however, I will find myself waking up (for instance, and especially, in front of my computer). There was no indication or even a reason for me to have fallen asleep.

This incident happened in the third and final week of the vacation/road trip. No patterns had changed - we had been following the exact same routine, including getting the same number of hours of sleep. My father did not have the sensation of "feeling tired". In fact, we had only been on the road again after breakfast for a very short time. So I would say that his falling asleep was not a choice - it just happened. In fact, as a result of this incident which was so out of character for him, my mother insisted that he go in for a physical check up when we got home. I believe that when he said he could still drive after I woke him up was a response of embarrassment, as he had nothing to offer as to why he was sleeping. Indeed, he STILL did not "feel tired". I firmly do not believe it was his free choice to be driving while being tired. As it turns out, my father was diagnosed with sleep apnea. Due to his age and the effects of this condition, his driving became strictly restrained to short, in-town trips only. As he continued to age, his response time to react to things forced us to remove his driving privileges altogether. This is something we will all face personally, or vicariously through our loved ones as we get older. The ability of the aged to even reason things out changes, and can be dramatically impaired without their being "aware". It is just a part of the mortal life cycle.

If God allowed this consequence of free agency to happen to this girl, why did He intervene to not allow a consequence of your Fathers decision to drive whilst tired?

Why did God take away the learning experience of your family being harmed?

You can see where I am coming from I hope.
The two experiences are the same - in both, innocent parties could have been harmed as a direct consequence of the actions of another. He chose to intervene to protect you, but didn't make the same decision to protect the nine year old girl.


I do understand where you are coming from, though I do not believe the two experiences are the same. My father's experience was a result of his aging and previously undiagosed sleep apnea....In other words, natural changes in his body which happened as a result of his being mortal. The second experience was a willful and repeated evil choice made by the Primary Teacher.

Love,

jo
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Re: Spirituality or just emotion...?

Post by _emilysmith »

When describing spirituality, you are either making stuff up, or you are repeating stuff that someone else made up.

Until someone can explain how this intangible spirit interacts with our biology, all you have to support you is whatever fiction comes to mind. The reason it isn't testable is because it doesn't exist.

If a spirit can see, what mechanisms would it use to see? You can explain how a computer can see. You can even explain why a computer has trouble interpreting images compared to a human... who has parts of the brain that allow us to interpret images. Without that part of the brain, how could a spirit know what it was seeing?

Spirituality is emotion. Certainty is an emotional state. The more certain you are about something, the more emotional you are and the more likely it is that you are actually wrong.

This is all just stating the obvious.
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Re: Spirituality or just emotion...?

Post by _Drifting »

Jo,

Let me give you another example from the news recently.
Three missionaries were cycling along when they were hit by a car.
They weren't doing anything wrong, they were innocent parties , like you were in that car that night. Why did God prompt you to take action but not prompt those missionaries, two of whom died?
Last edited by Guest on Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
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"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
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Re: Spirituality or just emotion...?

Post by _Franktalk »

It is difficult to see God respect free agency and then intervene sometimes and not others. It seems inconsistent and arbitrary. This is where trust in God comes into play. One can either trust that God is doing what is in the greater good or not. I choose to believe that He is doing the greater good. And I accept that at times I will not know why He chooses one action over another. I also accept that some of those choices will seem odd to me. Almost as if a test of my faith. I will tell everyone that many choose to place God in a box. They define what God would be like in their eyes. Then when God does not live up to that expectation they declare there is no God or they become angry with God. They have manifested a God image in their head. How strange to make a God with our limited mind and then to compare that image to a being that powers all of creation. I suspect it comes from our want to be on firm ground. When we create an image we know all about it. It becomes something real for us even if manifested in our brain. But God is not bound by our brain. To get the slightest feeling for the being of God one must let go of that grounded feeling and step into a place of free fall. Once you get to that place with no hand holds then you know you are on the right track. So for us to micromanage God on when to intervene and when not to is rather silly.
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Re: Spirituality or just emotion...?

Post by _SteelHead »

Or it could be completely random hapstance and those of you seeing supernatural intervention, delusional.

Take your pick. Mileage may vary.

Autocorrect strikes again.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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